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Sharpening Tips, Troubleshooting and Q & A.

Posted by jasonstone20 
Re: Sharpening Tips, Troubleshooting and Q & A.
October 15, 2017 01:32AM
I've been using a wool dauber to apply the oil on the stone, but it sounds like I'm using to much of a good thing.
Re: Sharpening Tips, Troubleshooting and Q & A.
October 15, 2017 06:47PM
The oil has to just barely cover the stone, it is just a lubricant, nothing more.
Re: Sharpening Tips, Troubleshooting and Q & A.
October 16, 2017 07:31AM
The steel on the Benchmade 940 in S30V seems kinda gummy. Is this normal for Benchmade's S30V? I have another Benchmade 940 in S30V and the steel isn't gummy like this one.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
Re: Sharpening Tips, Troubleshooting and Q & A.
October 21, 2017 08:08AM
I think something might be up with the steel. I am getting microchipping and sometimes the edge justs crumbles away when I am apexing the knife.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
Re: Sharpening Tips, Troubleshooting and Q & A.
October 21, 2017 09:10AM
Is it a new knife?
How many times has it been sharpened?
Re: Sharpening Tips, Troubleshooting and Q & A.
October 21, 2017 10:53AM
It's a knife that I got used, and it looked like it had never been sharpened, and was very dull, it would barely cut cardboard. I have sharpened it more than a dozen times at least.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
Re: Sharpening Tips, Troubleshooting and Q & A.
October 21, 2017 02:38PM
Quote
jasonstone20
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''I have sharpened it more than a dozen times at least.

That shoots my idea in the rear end then.
I was thinking tempering changes at the edge may have occurred after factory grinding.
But I would assume you have removed a fair amount of metal by now, so that is less likely to be a possibility.

Gummy and microchips seem like an odd combination though...............
Re: Sharpening Tips, Troubleshooting and Q & A.
October 21, 2017 04:35PM
Yeah, I am puzzled.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
Re: Sharpening Tips, Troubleshooting and Q & A.
October 21, 2017 08:58PM
There is one thing to remember, however. I am trying to get a HHT edge without stropping or using a guided system. Now I do have a Benchmade 940 in S30V that I can get that sharp freehand with Arkansas stones, and that is the standard at which I am shooting for. The edge of the 940 in S30V that I am having issues with can get HHT passing sharp, just I need either a guided system with diamond and synthetic stones, or freehand with stropping afterward. Ideally, I should be able to get a HHT passing edge off the stones, but if that isn't the case, so be it. That being said, the steel is a little gummy, the apex does crumble, especially when using sintered ceramics to set the apex or microbevel, and I have also gotten microchipping. I have tried most of the ways I know how to sharpen a knife to see if the problem gets solved, but it is what it is. Worse comes to worse I will send the knife back to Benchmade and get the blade replaced. I need to see how long the edge lasts and behaves now since I have gone through the sharpening stage of experimenting.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/21/2017 08:59PM by jasonstone20.
Re: Sharpening Tips, Troubleshooting and Q & A.
October 22, 2017 05:42AM
I'll be curious to hear what you find out.
Re: Sharpening Tips, Troubleshooting and Q & A.
October 23, 2017 11:50AM
I have noticed another problem. The Benchmade 940 in S30V that I have been having issues with has an issue when applying a micro-bevel, no matter what the stone used. The edge will either get a lot duller, as in going from shaving sharp to not being able to shave at all, crumble, or mirco-chip. Which I find odd, because the edge does respond to stropping, both plain and with abrasive.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
Re: Sharpening Tips, Troubleshooting and Q & A.
October 23, 2017 03:07PM
I think I have the same problem as in this YouTube by Cliff:
[youtu.be]

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
Re: Sharpening Tips, Troubleshooting and Q & A.
October 23, 2017 07:20PM
I would use it for a while and simply see how it behaves. As well at times we can become colored by our own impressions a little too easily.
Re: Sharpening Tips, Troubleshooting and Q & A.
October 23, 2017 08:18PM
Cliff,
That's what I have planned. I am not sure what's going on with the knife or if it is just my technique of sharpening that's the problem.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
Re: Sharpening Tips, Troubleshooting and Q & A.
October 24, 2017 08:52AM
I have found, odd as that may seem, that I can actually get a bad impression of a knife and that will cloud future use. It helps when there is a problem to just back off for awhile and forget about sharpening, at least at a very high level. It isn't as if because the knife won't push cut tissue paper (or whatever) it can't be of use anyway.
Re: Sharpening Tips, Troubleshooting and Q & A.
October 24, 2017 09:35AM
Cliff,
Good point. Thank you for your input.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
Re: Sharpening Tips, Troubleshooting and Q & A.
October 29, 2017 10:21AM
Well, I have made some progress on figuring out how to get the S30V steel sharp in a repeatable fashion. I think I am also finally into good, undamaged steel. The methods for sharpening I used were creating a burr using diamond hones (EZE-Lap C/#220 and SF/#1200) and sintered ceramics (Spyderco M and UF rods), and not creating a burr with a King 1k, 4k of my Norton 4k/8k, the 3k side of my Suehiro 1k/3k, and the 6k side of my Steelex 1k/6k, followed by apexing on the Spyderco UF rod. Both methods responded to stropping, both with and without abrasive. One problem I think I figured out was that the steel doesn't respond well to 'over-sharpening' or 'over-working' the edge when micro-beveling. With the waterstone method, I was able to apex with 10 light alternating foward passes per side. If I tried to do more than that, the edge got duller. Both edges passes the HHT/free hanging hair test and were able to completely severe a hair in half, and whittle hair.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
Re: Sharpening Tips, Troubleshooting and Q & A.
November 02, 2017 10:46AM
I tried to refine the edge with plain and pasted strops, but it just killed the edge. I know I was planning on not sharpening the knife and just seeing how the edge retention would be, but it was nagging at me that I could get the knife sharper, and I wanted to get it sharp by freehand and not using a strop. So to get a reference on how well the knife could and should perform, I sharpened it with a clamp system, using a full diamond progression, XC, C, F, EF, EEF, and then finishing on white sintered ceramic. The edge was just how sharp I wanted it, except in had a few chips. That gave me an excuse to sharpen it again, and this time I did it freehand. I set a relief bevel with a TASK UC Garden Hone (SiC, #90) and then used the diamond hones on top the edge, like in a clamped system, followed by finishing with the Spyderco UF Triangle Rod. What I was hoping for was to reduce pressure, since I think that was the main difference between using the clamp system and freehand. The edge came out just as sharp as the clamped system, like I had hoped it would. I wonder what is making the edge apex so sensitive to pressure?

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
Re: Sharpening Tips, Troubleshooting and Q & A.
November 05, 2017 10:34AM
The 940 in S30V doesn't really respond well to stropping, either plain or with abrasive. It just seems to dull the edge.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
Re: Sharpening Tips, Troubleshooting and Q & A.
November 05, 2017 08:58PM
Cliff,
Is there any reason Benchmade's S30V would be more prone to microburrs? I tried to strop them off but all I got for my effort was a dull, jagged apex. For some reason slicing in wood and microbeveling didn't have this issue, and left me with a nice clean apex.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
Re: Sharpening Tips, Troubleshooting and Q & A.
November 06, 2017 08:58AM
Jason,

There are lots of reasons why a steel could be prone to not forming clean edges due to problems in HT. Kershaw's 13C26 was certainly like that due to high levels of retained austenite (assumed from the very low hardness). However I tend to be very hesitant to reach conclusions about steels/companies without a fairly broad sample.
Re: Sharpening Tips, Troubleshooting and Q & A.
November 06, 2017 09:59AM
Cliff,
I think it could be my technique. The only other knife I have in S30V doesn't have these issues, but a Benchmade I have in 154cm has the same issue. I can get the apex to form clean with some sharpening stones and methods but not others, and I have knives, same maker (Benchmade) same models (940 and Tanto Griptillian) and same steels (S30V and 154cm). I should just stick with what works for those knives and call it good. Problem is that it doesn't make sense to me, and it is a puzzle for me to work on, something I enjoy.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
Re: Sharpening Tips, Troubleshooting and Q & A.
November 19, 2017 09:45AM
when asked on a cooking forum "what sharpening stones to start with?", I gave the reply which is echoed here often, a basic norton coarse crystolon and fine india and perhaps an extra-fine diamond bench hone to finish. using conversion charts, it looks like a 1200 diamond corresponds to about 3000-4000 in Japanese water stones. a reply to my suggestion was
"Scott has some knife knowledge, he is also terribly stuck in the old ways and, quite frankly, not screwed together too tight. So No india stone or any other oil stones, and no diamond steels or diamond hones. Diamonds steels will ruin your edge, diamond hones are typically too course for touch ups and will wear out quickly if used for full-scale sharpening." gotta love it.
so what should we recommend to newbies? for the average home cook, unless you are trying to slice fish see thru thin, is there any real need to take the edge beyond fine india?
in addition, there seems to very little scientific testing other than what Cliff and a few others have done. other than "try this, it worked for me" what advise can we give?

scott
[www.etsy.com]



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/19/2017 10:07AM by oldsailorsknives.
Re: Sharpening Tips, Troubleshooting and Q & A.
November 19, 2017 11:05AM
Maybe a King 1k or a Soft Arkansas stone to go with it. If a finer finish is needed (Soft Ark) and if the steel is burr prone, then the King 1k to set the edge bevel before apexing, either on the Fine India or Soft Ark.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
Re: Sharpening Tips, Troubleshooting and Q & A.
November 21, 2017 08:22PM
Quote
oldsailorsknives

so what should we recommend to newbies? for the average home cook, unless you are trying to slice fish see thru thin, is there any real need to take the edge beyond fine india?

I would consider :

-will they actually keep the edge very sharp
-what steel are they using
-how rough are they using it

If the person is sharpening the steel frequently, if they are using a very high end knife, if they are using it carefully - then I might consider a finer grit stone IF at the same time it is mainly a push cutting knife. If any of them are not true, then it is likely a finer stone isn't of benefit anyway.

Plus you have to get the technique down or a finer grit stone isn't going to do anything even if all of the above are true anyway. Can you take a knife from a fine India and readily push cut newsprint on an angle - if you can't, then a finer stone is likely a waste, you need to learn how to sharpen first. It would be like someone who can't ride a bike trying to figure out what kind of pedals are best.
Re: Sharpening Tips, Troubleshooting and Q & A.
August 05, 2018 08:42AM
Hey everyone -

I was hoping to do some troubleshooting on my sharpening technique and get some feedback.

I regularly sharpen the following steels:

CPM 154, O1, Mora Carbon Steel, Mora Stainless, AEB-L.

I have a set of DMT diamond discontinuous (Blue, red, green) as well a Norton Crystolon coarse/fine and a spyderco ultra fine 3 x 8.

Most of the time, I sharpen to a burr with a coarse crystolon stone on the first side, sharpen to a burr on the second side. Instead of doing passes, I usually scrub in short strokes back and forth to make the process faster.

I then progress to the norton crystolon fine, doing short scrubbing strokes back and forth until ive reached all areas on the first side, then repeat for the second side.

Finally, I take the spyderco ultra fine and micro bevel.

My results are passable edges, they can shave hair and slice computer paper.

My problem is that the edge retention is not as good as I would like, and I am losing slicing aggression when I compare to knives I receive from factory (mora for example). Brand new examples simply feel toothier than the edges I produce, and they last longer. My edges don't show signs of burrs or any light reflection.

Additionally, my edges get better from stropping most of the time. They also seem to get worse as I progress to finer grits, not better, and then when I finally strop the edge comes back and is workable.

I am aware that working a burr is not ideal and compromises the steel, so that could be one problem, but otherwise, it seems clear to me that something is going wrong. I've also considered that I may benefit from not jumping in grit from the norton crystolon fine to spyderco ultra fine.

As cliff stated above, I should be able to have the knife come off a fine india stone and push cut newsprint on an angle. I can't do that, so I need improvement.

I have sharpened my knives this way for quite a few years, and they are functional, but I want to improve because I know tweaking things will take my sharpness to a better level.

Does anyone have any recommendations to improve, break bad habits, and develop a more effective system? I have struggled with Cliff's plateau sharpening method, not in terms of understanding it, but in terms of executing it effectively.

Thanks
Re: Sharpening Tips, Troubleshooting and Q & A.
August 05, 2018 09:59AM
rmjohns8,
I would try a few things. First, going from the Norton Crystolon Fine to the Spyderco UF is a huge jump. After the Norton Crystolon Fine, I would use the DMT Blue, then Red, then Green before I used the Sypderco UF. Also, try using dish soap and water as a sharpening solution for lubrication. Try and use light pressure on the DMT stones and the Spyderco UF. Finally, make sure you have the blade properly de-burred, as what problems you are having sounds like there is a small or hard to detect burr still of the apex. You can microbevel and then back sharpen, or use a strop to remove the burr.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
Re: Sharpening Tips, Troubleshooting and Q & A.
August 05, 2018 04:16PM
Quote
rmjohns8

As cliff stated above, I should be able to have the knife come off a fine india stone and push cut newsprint on an angle. I can't do that, so I need improvement.

This is possible, however it isn't easy, and it takes awhile to do it, most never do - hence why you read so much about coarse edges not actually being sharp. A lot of people who sharpen knives for money can't even do that.

In the beginning you are not looking for perfection, you are looking for progress.
Re: Sharpening Tips, Troubleshooting and Q & A.
August 07, 2018 07:07PM
Quote
CliffStamp
Quote
rmjohns8

As cliff stated above, I should be able to have the knife come off a fine india stone and push cut newsprint on an angle. I can't do that, so I need improvement.

This is possible, however it isn't easy, and it takes awhile to do it, most never do - hence why you read so much about coarse edges not actually being sharp. A lot of people who sharpen knives for money can't even do that.

In the beginning you are not looking for perfection, you are looking for progress.

Cliff- I completely agree.

I'm going to try out jason's suggestions and see if that helps. Do you have any other suggestions for progress in the right direction? Thanks.
Re: Sharpening Tips, Troubleshooting and Q & A.
August 08, 2018 02:51AM
I can suggest moving from raising Burr sharpening to plateu sharpening and from scrubbing motion to fluent full length edge of alternating passes.
Do not see problem in big grit jumps in plateu sharpening whit final step creating microbevel on hard fine stone that does not release abrasive.

1k soft muddy stone like King or Suehiro can be useful as middle step from coarse crystolon to keep the Burr from appearing.

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