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Using Ceramics To Sharpen Vanadium Steels

Posted by jasonstone20 
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Using Ceramics To Sharpen Vanadium Steels
October 17, 2017 11:35PM
A discussion on BladeForums about sharpening steels with Vanadium using ceramics:

[www.bladeforums.com]


[www.bladeforums.com]

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: Using Ceramics To Sharpen Vanadium Steels
October 18, 2017 04:08AM
"If you sharpen them using standard abrasives you'll get the steel sharp, but will have torn the carbides out of the edge and so you're not getting any benefit from them and your edge won't hold any longer than a low-alloy steel would."

Ref : [www.bladeforums.com]

This simply isn't true.

I thought this way for awhile, in fact if you go back a long time ago you might even find posts where I said it. It sounds reasonable after all. But when I did some experiments I found it simply isn't true. If you compare 10V on some high wear task and you sharpen it with a normal India stone it doesn't behave like it had no vanadium carbide.

Why isn't it this way? Well for one thing, the interaction between carbide and abrasive is not so simple as if the abrasive is softer it can't cut the carbide so it tears it out. If the abrasive for example is larger than the carbide it doesn't much care if the carbide is harder, it doesn't really see it that much and vanadium carbide is very small, ~1 micron (up to ~5-10 in very high carbide steels). It just cut the steel and ploughs out the carbide along with it. It gets worn by all the scraping of the carbide and it wears the carbide but these are small secondary effects.

Now if you get the abrasive and carbide the same size you do get carbide/abrasive direct effects, but it isn't even then a guarantee that the carbide will get tore out, it could just wear down a little and/or tear out the abrasive or just wear it right down. This is why India stones get very smooth very fast if you try to use them on 10V class steels, you spend as much time conditioning as you do sharpening.


===

Experiment without theory can be inefficient.

However theory without Experiment is pretty much useless.
RFL
Re: Using Ceramics To Sharpen Vanadium Steels
October 18, 2017 01:43PM
Cliff,
I am not sure what you meant specifically by this sentence:


If you compare 10V on some high wear task and you sharpen it with a normal India stone it doesn't behave like it had no
vanadium carbide.
Re: Using Ceramics To Sharpen Vanadium Steels
October 18, 2017 04:08PM
Cliff,
Todd who has the Science of Sharp blog says the same thing about carbide tearout. He hasn't seen it with SEM images either. Steel Drake did a test about this, and found it not to be an issue either. I find it odd that people can talk about it being an issue after it has been found not to be a thing.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: Using Ceramics To Sharpen Vanadium Steels
October 18, 2017 06:29PM
I was looking into this because of the trouble I have with the Benchmade 940 in S30V. It is hard to get the steel to apex cleanly, and easy to kill the apex if you aren't careful, so I was wondering if the higher Vanadium carbide steels had a similar issue.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: Using Ceramics To Sharpen Vanadium Steels
October 18, 2017 09:32PM
Here is a perfect example of what I mean:
[www.bladeforums.com]

What are the remains of previous abrasive scratches are labeled as being carbide pop outs, and even when this is explained and shown in later posts, the poster doesn't accept the information. Here is the thread that those images were taken from, and again it looks like the same notion is accepted:
[www.bladeforums.com]

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 10/18/2017 09:45PM by jasonstone20.
Re: Using Ceramics To Sharpen Vanadium Steels
October 20, 2017 03:14AM
Quote
RFL


If you compare 10V on some high wear task and you sharpen it with a normal India stone it doesn't behave like it had no
vanadium carbide.

Ha, using multiple negatives is never a sensible choice.

I meant to say if you sharpen 10V with an India stone and you use it for some high wear cutting task it behaves as expected, not as if all the vanadium carbide was ripped out hence it should be obvious carbide tear out isn't as common as some people might think.
Re: Using Ceramics To Sharpen Vanadium Steels
November 17, 2017 05:55PM
The discussion/argument continues on BladeForums with a couple of new threads:


Sharpening 20CV:
[www.bladeforums.com]

Minimum Sharpening Angle for High Carbide Steels:
[www.bladeforums.com]

Sharpening Stones to Use With Powdered Steels:
[www.bladeforums.com]

Diamond Stones to Use For S110V:
[www.bladeforums.com]

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: Using Ceramics To Sharpen Vanadium Steels
November 17, 2017 06:34PM
as usual, all the BF observations are anecdotal and there is no testing to back any of the claims. maybe some have watched Cliff's video where he states you would need to cut several thousand feet of cardboard with each blade in order to see any difference in performance between edge 1 and edge 2.

scott
[www.etsy.com]
Re: Using Ceramics To Sharpen Vanadium Steels
November 17, 2017 07:27PM
Scott,
I think you hit the nail on the head. Also, if you properly sharpen the knife with a clean apex on the edge bevel, most of the problems reported go away, especially once you get past the damaged metal of most factory sharpenings.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: Using Ceramics To Sharpen Vanadium Steels
November 18, 2017 12:46AM
a couple of thoughts
if the ceramic talked about is ceramic alumina, it is just a different form of aluminum oxide, Al2O3. i don't how changing it name from AO to ceramic it suddenly becomes harder and better to use than SiC or silicon carbide.
i hate that when asked by newbies how best to sharpen this or that steel, other than some basic observations like keep it thin and the angle low, the best we have to offer is try this and find the best compromise that works for you.

scott
[www.etsy.com]
Re: Using Ceramics To Sharpen Vanadium Steels
November 22, 2017 05:26PM
Cliff,
I have been reading some old posts about sharpening High Vanadium Steels, and I was wondering for a high sharpness can Spyderco Sintered Ceramics like their UF rod be used, or should a DMT EEF diamond sharpener work better for apexing or microbeveling? Would raising a burr and then deburring on a strop loaded with diamond compound work also?

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 11/22/2017 05:29PM by jasonstone20.
Re: Using Ceramics To Sharpen Vanadium Steels
November 23, 2017 04:41PM
It seems like the diamond stones should do better if you just think about it, but in practice I have not been able to see a practical difference that wasn't if anything, more of a skill issue.

That being said I tend to like diamond stones for finishing as they are easier to clean, the Spyderco plates tend to load much easier for me and are harder to clean.

I rarely clean my MXF DMT plate, I just flush it with the lubricant I use on occasion and wipe it down until the cloth comes away clean.
Re: Using Ceramics To Sharpen Vanadium Steels
November 23, 2017 06:13PM
Cliff,
Thank you. I have been searching for good personal accounts, and you Michael Christy are the only ones I can find that have done recent work with high sharpness on these types of steels with these types of stones. I am just waiting for my one knife in S30V to stabilize, it is doing fine in the edge retention department, and has been easier to apex. I was having a micro-burr issue with the Spyderco UF rod, and micro-chipping with the DMT EEF. With the other Benchmade HD 940 in S30V, I can sharpen it to a high sharpness with Arkansas stones and a little stropping without abrasive compounds.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: Using Ceramics To Sharpen Vanadium Steels
November 28, 2017 10:18PM
A discussion on BladeForums about using SiC and Spyderco UF to sharpen S30V:
[www.bladeforums.com]

Seems like the argument being made is just hedging their bets, as they say there is no practical difference in edge retention or sharpness, while there still is carbide tearout and a slight difference in edge retention and sharpness.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: Using Ceramics To Sharpen Vanadium Steels
November 14, 2018 07:36PM
An article that Big Brown Bear shared with me when we were discussing diamond/cbn waterstones and sharpening so-called supersteels:

[knifegrinders.com.au]

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: Using Ceramics To Sharpen Vanadium Steels
November 14, 2018 07:37PM
An article that Big Brown Bear shared with me when we were discussing diamond/cbn waterstones and sharpening so-called supersteels:

It basically says that Diamond/CBN gets edges sharper and they last longer than AlO.

[knifegrinders.com.au]

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: Using Ceramics To Sharpen Vanadium Steels
December 23, 2018 02:16AM
Quote
jasonstone20


It basically says that Diamond/CBN gets edges sharper and they last longer than AlO.

[knifegrinders.com.au]

The results don't show that though, this is the problem when you self-publish. Here is just one example :

- look closely at the data for Vanadis 10 V 9.8 %

They stop testing the alumina once it exceeds 500, but if you look at the CBN/Diamond, it changes by ~75 from one sharpening to the next, which is greater than the difference between the two.

The data hints that there might be a difference, but it isn't collected in a way to show it, and the attempted statistics make no sense as they are doing linear comparisons on non-linear functions.

Other issues :

- the D2 blade has worse performance on the CBN/Diamonds

As well, if you look at not the raw performance but the difference between initial and final, there is no significant change in CBN/Diamond vs Alumina which indicates that it is an initial sharpness problem. This is easily explained by the fact that high vanadium steels will rapidly wear alumina abrasives which have to be constantly dressed / replaced or else you lose performance.
Re: Using Ceramics To Sharpen Vanadium Steels
December 23, 2018 04:00PM
Cliff,
Yes, I noticed that too and was hoping to start a conversation about that whole subjects. Interacting with the person who did the work is hit or miss, sometimes he is open to discussion other not. Hopefully, since he is a good sharpener and has an obvious interest in pursuing getting the best edge ob a knife possible, with a few suggestions to the work more beneficial data can be generated.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: Using Ceramics To Sharpen Vanadium Steels
February 10, 2019 11:07PM
Some interesting information on a similar topic here:
Page 1 Page 2 Page 3

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: Using Ceramics To Sharpen Vanadium Steels
February 14, 2019 05:48AM
Your favorite progression for sharpening high vanadium steels

I say use diamonds and ceramics, maybe SiC

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: Using Ceramics To Sharpen Vanadium Steels
January 11, 2020 10:37PM
Re: Using Ceramics To Sharpen Vanadium Steels
January 12, 2020 02:46PM
Mr. Wizard,
Thanks for digging this thread up. It has information I was looking for, due to a discussion I was having with someone about KnifeGrinders book/PDF on the burr.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: Using Ceramics To Sharpen Vanadium Steels
January 13, 2020 02:08PM
Couple of day ago I spent around 8 to 10 minutes on victorinox pocket ceramic sharpener to bring back the edge on my K390 Police 4.
It works.
I do not recommend it but you can achieve reasonable edge if you have established one at the first place.

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