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Wayne Goddard And The Aligned Wire Edge

Posted by jasonstone20 
Wayne Goddard And The Aligned Wire Edge
January 09, 2018 12:56PM
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Quote
Wayne G.
THE WIRE EDGE
It is important to understand the wire edge and how to get it off of the freshly sharpened blade. The wire edge is formed as the two sharpening bevels meet at the edge. What I call a wire is a thin piece of blade material that bends back and forth from the action on the stone. The action on the stone to bring the edge up to sharp does not remove the wire, it creates it. When the wire edge is not lined up the knife will not appear to be as sharp as it could be, yet sufficient material may have already been removed. Since the edge does not feel sharp it is often worked some more on the stone and many knives are worn out prematurely from this overworking. When the wire edge is lined up the blade will appear to be sharp. I refer to this phenomenon as "false sharp". The blade may shave hair and slice paper, but when the edge contacts any type of hard substance the wire edge bends over and the knife will quit cutting. When the wire edge is pulled out in use it leaves micro flats where the steel pulls out. The wire edge must be carefully removed with very light action on the stone.

REMOVING THE WIRE EDGE
You will feel the hook of the wire with a fingernail and it will be on the opposite side from the last stroke on the stone. My way to remove the wire edge is to stroke the edge very lightly on the finish stone at an angle of around 30ยบ. The strokes are alternated from one side to the other and are very light. As the blade is stroked with the light cuts the wire is abraded off, leaving the true sharp edge. It might seem that the steep angle used to get the wire edge off would slow down the cutting ability of the knife. When properly done, not enough material is removed to blunt the edge. With the wire edge removed you will have a true sharp edge and one that will hold an edge up to the full potential of the glade.
It is very easy to lose the sharp cutting angle at the edge when trying to get the wire edge off by buffing or stropping. If you prefer a buffed or stropped edge, take the wire off on the stone, then buff or strop. The angle on the strop or buff is critical, if too steep, the edge gets rounded off and the edge loses its true sharpness.
This applies to hunting and working knives.
Be aware that most cooks and meat cutters work with the wire edge on their knives. The constant steeling keeps the wire lined up and the burnishing effect prolongs use without returning to a stone.
My finish stone is the Norton Fine India (aluminum oxide).

Now, I have seen it several times on forums and YouTube videos stated that if you can whittle or sever a head hair, then the apex is burr-free (as close as possible, depending on how the burr is defined, ie Verehoven's defintion vs excess/unwanted metal on the apex). I have found this to not be true, as a micro-burr will easily whittle or sever head hair. Also, it is often stated that a hair whittling egde only lasts for a few cuts. I think what is happening is that they have an aligned micro-burr, like Wayne Goddard describes. I am trying to figure out a way to detect high sharpness, but excludes the micro-burr or as Wayne Goddard calls 'wire-edge' and a 'false sharp'. The two ways I had in mind to at least remove and pretty much guarantee that you don't have an aligned micro-burr is either to do high-angle passes, the Wayne Goddard/Jeff Clark method, or running the blade across your thumbnail or soft wood and then doing a few passes on the stone. Of course, you can always use burr free sharpening (Cliff Stamp's Three Step Method or Plateau Sharpening Method) in the first place, but it still is helpful to know how to remove or detect and aligned micro-burr.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
Re: Wayne Goddard And The Aligned Wire Edge
January 09, 2018 04:53PM
I still struggle with burrs or wire edges, especially when trying to sharpen with course stones.
Some knives I can't feel them, or see them with my crappy loupe. But I start cutting newsprint and after a few cuts I can feel the burr is folding over.
I'm not nearly the sharpener that many of you are, but the newsprint helps me with micro burr detection. If my fingers are dry I can detect a pretty small burr. But if I've been using a water stone my fingers are no longer useful.
I keep practicing plateau sharpening, but I have a bad habit of thinking I'm closer to apexing than I actually am. Maybe I need new glasses.
Re: Wayne Goddard And The Aligned Wire Edge
January 09, 2018 05:00PM
J. Pierce,

I think my eyes are worse than what Cliff describes. Even after I can't see light detecting from a destressed edge, I often have to keep working the bevel a bit (not too long though) before it effortlessly slice newsprint.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________

Always in search of a good choppa'
Re: Wayne Goddard And The Aligned Wire Edge
January 13, 2018 04:13PM
Just to clarify, in the extremes, if you have a fatigued piece of metal on the apex which is stood straight up, it will act like a properly sharpened knife in all cases *except* the edge retention will be poor. The only way to know if it is there (unless you can see it under high magnification) is to just use it and see if the sharpness degrades very quickly. Note that this is *exactly* why some people think high sharpness is useless as they always have burrs which break apart quickly in use.

The way to stop this (or at least make it rare) is to sharpen so as to minimize the chance of large burrs forming.
Re: Wayne Goddard And The Aligned Wire Edge
January 14, 2018 04:17AM
Which if I remember right means:
-edge leading strokes
-not over grinding
-muddy stones for finishing
-alternating strokes when setting apex

Anything else?

Thank you.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________

Always in search of a good choppa'
Re: Wayne Goddard And The Aligned Wire Edge
January 14, 2018 06:05AM
I agree with Jason that hair whittling is not an indication of burr free.
Like Cliff said fatigued metal stood straight up feels sharp.
When edge retention is quickly lost, I know it folded over.

A bigger problem for me and I assume many others too is a miss diagnosis. That's when I'm not paying close enough attention and I assume I have not apexed so I grind away at it some more. When the reality is I had a folded over burr. At that point the additional cutting is usually only aggravating my burr problem.
I find I tend to make this mistake when I'm in a hurry to do a quick touch up and get back to work.
I seem to think just because I'm in a hurry that I can get by with sloppy technique and poor assessment and observation of the situation.
Re: Wayne Goddard And The Aligned Wire Edge
January 14, 2018 10:49AM
If I micro-bevel, cross the scratch pattern, use very light passes, back-sharpen, and examine the edge under magnification, as well as not being able to feel a burr with my fingers, it is safe to say I wouldn't have an aligned wire edge?

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
Re: Wayne Goddard And The Aligned Wire Edge
January 16, 2018 09:49AM
I don't think you can guarantee it, but the first three things are not prone to burr formation. The last two things will only catch very large burrs.
Re: Wayne Goddard And The Aligned Wire Edge
January 16, 2018 10:26AM
Cliff,
Interesting, thank you. I have two related things that I am working on while pursuing a way to get a high sharpness edge. First is how to sharpen a knife with diamond plates and sintered ceramics, as these are easily carried on my person, without leaving a micro-burr. Usually I would just use a muddy stone for like a King 1k and then a 3k and 6k stone, then use either a Spyderco UF, Black Arkansas, or DMT EEF to apex with. The second thing is that when setting the apex with the final stone, sometimes I overgrind accidentally and have a micro-burr, and I am trying to find a way to make sure it is removed. Also, because I can't always feel what is going on with the edge on the stone, due to some mild neuropathy in my hands, I will burr sharpen as I find this sometimes easier and faster to use than the Three-Step/Plateau sharpening. What I have tried for micro-burr removal is pasted stropping (few passes), plain stropping (few passes), drawing the edge through either my thumbnail or soft wood, then re-apexing the edge, and the techniques I said in the previous post(micro-beveling with light high angle passes, crossing the scratch pattern, and back sharpening). Ideally I would like get a high sharpness edge straight off the stones.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
Re: Wayne Goddard And The Aligned Wire Edge
May 22, 2019 07:08PM
[www.bladeforums.com]
[www.bladeforums.com]

I have just re-read my copy of the 2001 Blade Magazine Wayne Goddard article on sharpening, which is his excerpt from one of his books. I am going to try and use his edge and see how I like it, as I have a Norton IC-6 (M Crystolon/ F India) Stone that I bought because of the article.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
Re: Wayne Goddard And The Aligned Wire Edge
May 22, 2019 07:28PM
Ok, so I tried out the technique. I cut of the edge with three passes on the Fine India stone, then I did 5 edge leading passes per side 4 times, for a total of 20 passes, and the edge was apex and would catch on my nail, and some places on the blade had a small burr. Then I did 5 edge leading passes per side, then 5 elevated edge leading passes per side. The edge was shaving sharp. Then I stropped 5 passes per side on CrOx and leather. The edge would pass a HHT 0(completely cut the hair immediately) and a HHT 1( violins/vibrates the hair) is some places on the edge. This is a fairly course edge, but a completely serviceable edge. I was surprised how fast and easy it worked. Now for the use test.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
sal
Re: Wayne Goddard And The Aligned Wire Edge
May 23, 2019 07:02PM
Hi Jason,

Wayne was one of my knife making guru's. A great man. He taught me a great deal, especially about edge geometry.

sal
Re: Wayne Goddard And The Aligned Wire Edge
May 23, 2019 11:14PM
sal,
I always read his articles and admired his designs, I am working on getting his books to read. I go back and re-read his articles every so often, as the more I use knives, sharpen, read and talk to other people the more I understand what he was talking about.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
me2
Re: Wayne Goddard And The Aligned Wire Edge
May 26, 2019 07:06PM
I read Wayne's first book so many times I delaminated the covers. I had a similar reaction to his passing as I did to Charlie Murphy. Both brought many smiles, though for different reasons.
Re: Wayne Goddard And The Aligned Wire Edge
May 28, 2019 12:26PM
I am liking this edge so far, it seems to have a better balance of push cutting and slicing than my experience with the diamond C #325 edge. It seems to just zip through material, whether I am push cutting or slicing.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
Re: Wayne Goddard And The Aligned Wire Edge
May 29, 2019 12:07PM
One of the other issues I am running up against is that the edges will lose sharpness over time, going from a HHT 3-4 on arm/head hair (tree topping edge) to a HHT 3-4 on beard hair. I find that pasted stropping degrades the edge integrity, and impedes the renewal of slicing aggression. Touch up sharpening, with a micro-bevel and then back sharpening seems to revitalize the edge how I like it. I have had decent results with palm stropping when sharpening with higher grits (JIS 6k, Surgical Black Arkansas, Spyderco UF), but I have yet to try it out on this coarser edge. As far as actual use, I am not really seeing any advantage with a high sharpness edge, either in cutting or edge retention. I haven't really done accurate, measured tests, just going off my feel for how sharp the edge is, how it cuts. I just monitor it weekly and monthly.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
Re: Wayne Goddard And The Aligned Wire Edge
June 07, 2019 10:43AM
I used this edge on the Spyderco Resilience yesterday for some yard work. Seems like a great edge for EDC work, and I think it might be my daily finish for EDC, as it has a good amount of push cutting and great slicing power.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
Re: Wayne Goddard And The Aligned Wire Edge
June 11, 2019 04:44PM
For comparison and contrast, I put a Spyderco UF edge stropped on PKH 1u and Maggards CrOx, on the Benchmade 555 Mini-Grip, with the DMT Magna-Guide Aligner. I want to see if I notice any difference in the edges. I think I will give this edge until the end of the month.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
sal
Re: Wayne Goddard And The Aligned Wire Edge
June 11, 2019 06:14PM
Keep us posted.

sal
Re: Wayne Goddard And The Aligned Wire Edge
June 11, 2019 09:29PM
sal,
I am starting to think that there is something wrong with the steel on the Mini-Grip. I am getting a lot of micro-burring, and inconsistent results from sharpening, especially at higher grits. I did get a nice edge on it with the DMT Magna-Guide Aligner, but it took a few tries. The steel seems to be very sensitive to being overworked, the fewer passes I use the better. I might am running the Fine India edge on two other blades I am carrying, so it will be interesting to see if there is a difference I can notice.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
Re: Wayne Goddard And The Aligned Wire Edge
June 29, 2019 08:36AM
I did some head to head testing between the Spyderco Resilience 4.25" (FFG) in 8Cr13MoV with the Norton M Crystolon / Norton F India stone and the Benchmade Mini-Griptillian 3" (Saber Ground Hollow Grind) 555 in 154CM with the DMT Magna-Guide Aligner C, F, EF, EEF, and Spyderco UltraFine rod edge. I cut up two corrugated fiberboard pizza boxes along with two 1' square boxes made of the same material. There was no noticeable difference in use when push cutting or draw cutting. The only thing that did happen was the Benchmade stalled about six times and the Spyderco two times, but that could be because of the size of the blades and or blade grinds. Both blades where dulled the same amount (both blades were scrape shaving sharp afterwards), as neither would slice cigarette paper. I am going to re-sharpen the blades again, with the same edge for the Spyderco and a Japanese waterstone with Spyderco UF apex for the Benchmade. What I have discovered so far is that head hair popping/HHT 3-4 isn't really necessary for EDC use, and that a Fine India finish has a good amount of push-cutting ability and push-cutting edge retention, along with great slicing ability, while a high-polished edge has a good amount of slicing ability, not so great slicing edge retention, and great push cutting ability.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
Re: Wayne Goddard And The Aligned Wire Edge
June 29, 2019 09:32AM
Ok, knives sharpened back up to head hair popping (HHT 3) for the Benchmade, which had some problem with a burr on the waterstones but was removed with the Spyderco UF, and the Spyderco is beard hair popping with the Norton IC-6 (M Crystolon/F India). I didn't use a strop on either blades.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
Re: Wayne Goddard And The Aligned Wire Edge
June 30, 2019 11:30AM
One thing I forgot to mention in that with increased slicing aggression, I get increased cutting ability. I think this is happening because even though I might use a push-cutting motion by default, it is rarely a pure push cut as there is some slicing action a good percentage of the time. This should mean the cutting will benefit from which an edge finish with more aggressive slicing aggression. Another issue I am having however is that is isn't so simple to differentiate between the edge finishes, as both are sharpened to a high sharpness and will usually float through most material in most cutting. What did help is to carry a knife with each type of finish and duplicate the type of cutting with back to back testing of each finish type with EDC. That way if I observe a type of cutting behavior, I can test whether it is duplicated, improved, or has less performance than the other edge, since even in light cutting with easy to cut materials the cut can not start easily or stall during the cut, just because of angle of attack, how taught the material being cut is, how much speed and pressure is used during the cut.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
Re: Wayne Goddard And The Aligned Wire Edge
June 30, 2019 12:39PM
I evaluated the sharpness of both finishes on the blades and they both passed a HHT 0 on head hair, meaning they completely severed a head hair at or close to the point of hold. This makes me happy, as I had had problems with the Benchmade 154CM having burrs and even more problematic, micro-burrs, while the Spyderco has burring issues also, but because of the grit finish makes a head hair popping/severing difficult. Again, no stropping was used. For EDC use, I believe the better all around performing edge can and should be achieved without stropping, as Cliff Stamp, Roman Landes, and Sal Glesser have shown. You simply keep all of your slicing aggression, and although the push-cutting initial sharpness might not be as high as it can be, you do have a healthier edge and more slicing aggression, which as I have noted before, is more beneficial with EDC use. A push cutting edge used for shaving or for wood-working/woodcraft/bushcraft will benefit from stropping.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/30/2019 12:45PM by jasonstone20.
me2
Re: Wayne Goddard And The Aligned Wire Edge
July 06, 2019 04:32AM
All very interesting stuff. I still intend to pick up a Resilience, but have started eying a wharnecliffe Endura. I also intend to upgrade to a Norton Crystalon and India set for home sharpening and move the Economy to a travel stone.
Re: Wayne Goddard And The Aligned Wire Edge
July 06, 2019 05:08AM
me2,
Yes, the wharnecliffe Endura looks great. Next on my list of knives to buy is the Para 3 LW.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
Re: Wayne Goddard And The Aligned Wire Edge
July 18, 2019 10:42PM
Ok, after some more weed chopping, I resharpened the Benchmade 154CM to a Spyderco M Rod, micro-beveled at 15* DPS, and the Spyderco Resilience with the Norton M Crystolon and Norton Fine India, no stropping. Both blades would push cut cigarette paper and tree-top arm hair.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
JDW
Re: Wayne Goddard And The Aligned Wire Edge
July 19, 2019 12:05AM
That is a good sharpening job!
Re: Wayne Goddard And The Aligned Wire Edge
July 19, 2019 12:16AM
JDW,
Thanks. The key is getting the apex to form cleanly, whether you are burr sharpening or using a burrless method. Cliff helped me out a lot with that, and he also pointed me to Jeff Clarks work on de-burriing, which modified the Goddard method of cutting off the burr, by using a steeper angle. Burr detection also helps, and it just takes a lot of feeling the edge for that to happen.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07/19/2019 12:18AM by jasonstone20.
JDW
Re: Wayne Goddard And The Aligned Wire Edge
July 20, 2019 12:25AM
Yep, that is the way. I do find some hones more effective for de-burring than others.
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