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angle tracking while sharpening

Posted by fervens 
angle tracking while sharpening
March 24, 2018 12:32PM
video: [www.youtube.com]

keeps track of the angle while sharpengin. Good way to judge how you're doing/progressing. some interesting potential.
Re: angle tracking while sharpening
March 24, 2018 12:38PM
video: [www.youtube.com]

more in depth on the device its self
Re: angle tracking while sharpening
March 25, 2018 10:39AM
This looks like an awesome device and idea. I do wonder how practical it is however. I think I would have to play around with one to see if I could make use of one.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
Re: angle tracking while sharpening
March 25, 2018 11:12AM
I could see it limited to wider blades, but they are coming from the point of view of sharpening chef's knives. Not pocket knives. It would benefit greatly form a smaller form factor just so they can present it to a wider market.

A zeroing feature would really be nice for blades with multiple bevels for full flat grinds.

As a references point while sharpening those wider blades though, I can see it being very helpful in showing you your range of error. Clearly we're not going to hold a single angle the entire time, but with this, you'll see how far off you are. Helping reviews and test scenarios keep track of free handed edges.

With the magnet, you can switch this out with an angle cube for edge pro systems and such.
Re: angle tracking while sharpening
March 25, 2018 11:28AM
fervens,
As stated in the second video, it makes a lot of sense as a training device to teach you muscle memory, and that is great for learning how to freehand. You could do a similar thing, but a lot more awkward to use with a angle cube. I think that a unnecessary emphasis is placed on the angle and the exactness of the angle. As long as you are consistent with your angle and also can estimate the angle range you desire, you should be fine. For teaching people how to freehand, I think that this could be useful, and also it could help you refine your technique if you freehand already. I would like to use one for a while.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
Re: angle tracking while sharpening (bubblejig spirit level)
March 26, 2018 07:18PM
Hi

a wireless angle meter for learning to sharpen is as silly as
an emergency bluetooth whistle (GEKO Smart Whistle) that cost more than a smartphone




With that said a tiny angle cube (with zero wireless) would make a neat learn to electronics/programming kit

This is how small they can be with off the shelf diy components Tiny Inclinometer
Tiny Inclinometer TechnologyArduino by TinyCircuits 3,380 34 2 Posted Jan. 19, 2015


The linked components are priced at $70+tax+Shipping ( $19.95 + $19.95 + $14.95 + $14.95 )
but should be able to get similar components under $10 total on ebay (with all the usual caveats)

~$22 no-display version
Arduino-Rocket-Datalogger



tearing down a big angle cube
How Does a Digital Angle Gauge Work? - Proto G


its funny how for the cost of one of these you can get prepaid smart phone with accelerometer / tilt meter

update: writeup to go with frenchguy video Knife Sharpening Angle Coach With Bluetooth & Arduino by bekathwia in Arduino
components total at $77.55

____
Thanks
I don't mow smiling smiley
Re: angle tracking while sharpening (bubblejig spirit level)
March 27, 2018 10:18AM
Haha, until I read the instruction I sharpen a knife until I make software work I sharpen another one.

Thanks, but some inventions are just.. Like boeings 737 line "auto" extending/retracting front stairs.
Compared to manual ones they are heavier, more expensive, take fakin forever to retract much longer than manual,
and they brake every few dozens of uses.. ppl show me your brains..

Download a phyphox app for smartphones and use your phone as inclinometer to check,
can make wooden block with desired DPS angle to put one the stone for correct starting position.
Doesnt need electricity too so its more ecological ! ..

www.instagram.com/jscuttingtools
Re: angle tracking while sharpening
March 28, 2018 09:55PM
I see what you all are saying, but i find then just differing opinions.

If they run a product line, price could easily go down. Even if it goes up instead, are you telling me the people who spend just short of a thousand dollars on sharpening jigs or spend thousands of hours testing and reviewing knives, or hundred of dollars on diamond lapping plates, won't appreciate the utility of this device? Being able to tell their peers or audience that they kept their angle in a given tolerance. How many arguments are on bladeforums right now debating how a hand sharpened edge is really convex "but not mine cause I'm super incredible!"

Look at Cliff's reviews. Yes he does the math to back up his angles, but how many people really double check that? You could record a sharpening video while having the readout scroll on the screen.

Angle blocks are nice for the first inch of sharpening, but wont tell you anything past that.

I would much prefer seeing the numbers on a stationary screen instead of interrupting my strokes to look at the screen on the blade, or fighting with a wire if there is one.

Have you seen the size of phones today? I'm not going to try to balance my pixel 2 on my knife while sharpening it.

To be clear, I can free hand, and I generally dislike guides of any sort. I just find that this device has potential and can fill a niche.
Re: angle tracking while sharpening
March 29, 2018 12:59AM
I dint mean to have your phone on the blade. But to check stones, jigs, bevel, angles regularly so dont have to even buy inclinometer. Also as most blades dont have just flat cuttingedge profile your displayed value is off as soon as you rotate the axis in which it was calibrated pre sharpening.

The main point is, it will slow down your process but wont improve it in any way.

If person can freehand well, will be able to detect little change of sound and feel that they were off angle for some fraction of the pass etc... How much would you have to be concentrated to read the value off display that changes in fractions of a second ?

If person cant sharpen free hand well need some guide/jig system and this gizmo will become pointless..

www.instagram.com/jscuttingtools
Re: angle tracking while sharpening
March 29, 2018 09:19AM
I think it might be useful in limited was like fervens said, to show the accuracy of your technique or what I think might be good when learning how to freehand or teaching others. Also, it does show were on the pass that the angle deviations occur, and that could be helpful to modify your technique to less the deviations. I still want one.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
Re: angle tracking while sharpening
March 29, 2018 07:15PM
Hi

fervens: Angle blocks are nice for the first inch of sharpening, but wont tell you anything past that.

This device is literally just an angle block with a remote display , they both tell you the same thing



To me all these things just look like a digital bubble jig smiling smiley

You can make an analog bubble jig from off the shelf ebay parts for $3 and it'll tell you just as much , like if you're off +- 6 degrees
- 360° Universal Car Magnetic Dashboard Holder Mount For GPS Mobile Phone
- Goniometer Angle Finder Miter Plastic Protractor Gauge Arm Measuring Ruler Tool Articulating Arm Fold Instrument
- bullseye spirit level with 6 degree marks (not +-3 with minute marks )

you attach bubble level to 360° mount
pick the angle you want on protractor/goniometer,
adjust 360° bubble until its level while resting on protractor incline
attach 360°bubble to blade at base
then while sharpening keep bubble in the center

attach second 360°bubble to the blade at tip section



fervens: Have you seen the size of phones today? I'm not going to try to balance my pixel 2 on my knife while sharpening it.
Do you even lift, magnets? tongue sticking out smiley

____
Thanks
I don't mow smiling smiley
Re: angle tracking while sharpening
March 30, 2018 08:03AM
ShaperAndMower,
Do you think that having a record of your angles while sharpening would be helpful to someone either learning or trying to refine their technique? I think it would be fun to try one of things out to see if it is actually useful. Thoughts?

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
Re: angle tracking while sharpening
March 30, 2018 10:23AM
Quote
jasonstone20
ShaperAndMower,
Do you think that having a record of your angles while sharpening would be helpful to someone either learning or trying to refine their technique? I think it would be fun to try one of things out to see if it is actually useful. Thoughts?

Is critical to understand what I and ShaperAndMower mentioned upper:

Cutting edge profile isnt flat on most knives !

So You must rotate a knife to keep sliding curved cutting edge on the stone while maintaining
the same sharpening angle along the whole bevel being sharpened.

This rotates the axis in which the inclinometer was calibrated initially
and the value displayed, isnt the actual angle between the stone surface
and blade logitudinal plane at the current tangent spot of the curved profile
of your cutting edge.

I cant explain it more easily. Sorry.

www.instagram.com/jscuttingtools



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 03/30/2018 10:53AM by JSCT.
Re: angle tracking while sharpening
March 30, 2018 10:46AM
JSCT, ShaperAndMower:
I had been wondering about that, and it does seem to be a huge flaw in the concept. Thank you for clarifying that, I missed it in what you both had typed before, and it makes sense.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
Re: angle tracking while sharpening
March 31, 2018 01:08AM
I am sorry, explained it wrongly:

Quote
JSCT
This rotates the axis in which the inclinometer was calibrated initially
and the value displayed, isnt the actual angle between the stone surface
and blade logitudinal plane at the current tangent spot of the curved profile
of your cutting edge.

Correction:

The value displayed, is the actual angle between the stone surface
and the part of the edge bevel used for calibration.

But not necessarilly angle between the stone surface
and the part of the edge bevel that is in contant with the stone surface currently
(except blades with flat cutting edge profile).

This is now simplier and correct.

www.instagram.com/jscuttingtools
Re: angle tracking while sharpening
March 31, 2018 08:10AM
JSCT,
Right! I didn't think of that. The edge bevel is at a different angle that the main blade bevel.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage."
--Cliff Stamp

"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration"
--Roman Landes

"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' "
--Sal Glesser
Re: angle tracking while sharpening
March 31, 2018 10:36AM
this is the reason I like a sabre or scandi edge with slight microbevel. mark with edge with sharpee, stroke on stone till marks are gone. lift edge the width of a dime, make one stroke each side.
the problem with guided sharpeners is the lowest angle is about 15 dps, the blades I make are usually 7-10 dps or less.
scott

scott
[www.etsy.com]
Re: angle tracking while sharpening
March 31, 2018 11:11AM
Quote
jasonstone20
JSCT, ShaperAndMower:
I had been wondering about that, and it does seem to be a huge flaw in the concept. Thank you for clarifying that, I missed it in what you both had typed before, and it makes sense.
Well,
to be honest,
it could do 2-3 axis angles

... in in the comments for one video people are spit-balling wants,
instead of bluetooth, lights/sound/vibration when you're on or off angle,

well, this one buzzes and does x-y axis angles, and available for at least 6 years,
DXL360S-v2-Dual-Axis-Digital-Protractors.pdf
it has usb connection and you can stick a bluetooth dongle in there to beam numbers to your smartphone
Digital Angle Cube Inclinometer Protractor Tiltmeter - BT232 usb bluetooth adapter -TLL90S, DXL360, DXL360S connect to Android apps. - Kwan Chin Fung



bullseye bubble

bullseye bubble


There is a smart anglecube by igaging ( AngleCube IP54 Wireless ) which is supposed to come with built in bluetooth for $40 ... not sure if it does 1axis or 2 axis

But these are relatively huge/heavy and targetted at carpentery folks smiling smiley

Yes, there is undoubtedly a niche for a (bluetooth optional) 1x1inch or 1x2inch digital angle cube
just look at the number of comments (1k) and likes (5k) on the video,
if you're in the cottage knife industry or would like to get into it,
say you're making/selling strops,
you could get started with about $100 investement in parts/tools and make and easily sell 30-100 of these
there is not a lot of product development left to do (1-3 axis angle cube)
some $10 in off the ebay shelf electronic hobby components,
not a lot of soldering to do and there are instructables to follow


but, in the end, when you stick it to your knife, its a buble jig,

fred rowe sells about one bubble jig per day (2300/(6*365) )

For comparison ~1000 listings on ebay says some 20278 angle cubes sold



I just made one from
- tea box cardboard 2.5 in long, folded .5 in width/height L shape,
-1 random small screw,
-1 tubular spirit level, ~1in bubble from broken level/ruler,
- a .5in circle shower curtain magnet (curtain is intactsmiling smiley

so I played with it for a minute or two,
its very jiggly but it works
its definitely not for going fast,
its very easy for bubble to off center,
I got 2inch hanging off the back of the blade,
only the .5inch magnet footprint is on blade, thats all the footprint required
stone needs to be on bench

there is a reason the bubblejig is a knifemakers tool for freehand power grinding,
when you're supplying the power the bubble is just dancing all over the place,
its just too slow going to remain leveled

I dont see this as practical for learning freehand muscle memory unless the plan is for one pass to take ten seconds

digital display wouldn't change anything

maybe noise/vibration might have some merit
if you like to sharpen with blind fold
but I dont see how you could get closer on-angle
than "learning" to watch the spine height or watching the Shadow Stone Intersect ©®™

or tape some coins to the blade, or some cardboard on the spine, to help maintain spine height, and go as fast as you go

____
Thanks
I don't mow smiling smiley
Re: angle tracking while sharpening
April 08, 2018 05:47AM
For many years ago I build a very simple tool to meassure the edgeangle when sharpening by hand on a benchstone. I use this tool when I was on fairs and when someone clame that he could hold a constant angle during sharpening...

I simply used a small laser pointer mounted on a angled (10 degree) piece of brass that have a magnet in the short end that hold this tool fixed on the blade. The laser pen was fasten with a rubber band.

I made a target that shall be on 54 cm distance From the cutting edge. The target had a horisontal target line + a line for degrees from the targetline. If the clamping man can hold a consitstent angle the laser point will follow the target line perfecly and not leave it. In this distance (54 cm) 1 degree = 1 cm in height.

When claiming men use my tool the red det was all over the target to start with - but after som practice they could hold the red dot inside +/- 5 degrees from the targetline..

It is a very simple tool to make, it can be made in wood. The only things needed is a laser pointer and a magnet and a body that holds the magnet and the laser pointer.

People that use this rool very fast learn that it is impossible to hold a consitstent angle during free hand sharpening - and that it is impossible to come below 3 degrees wobble.

Build one and test it. Use video to se how the red sot moves and concentrate on the sharpening and to keep the angle constant.

Thomas
Re: angle tracking while sharpening
April 08, 2018 02:13PM


i found a pic on my tool and the target smiling smiley

Thomas
Re: angle tracking while sharpening
April 08, 2018 02:28PM
Quote
edgepal
i found a pic on my tool and the target smiling smiley

Thomas

Neat idea, simple, accurate, reliable.
Major advance is that you can see in a real time how the angle is changed by certain movements..
For a long time havent seen something so simple yet original and useful.

www.instagram.com/jscuttingtools
Re: angle tracking while sharpening
April 08, 2018 05:19PM
I like it.
Re: angle tracking while sharpening
April 08, 2018 11:58PM
Re: angle tracking while sharpening
April 20, 2018 07:30PM
Hmm,
Carboard triangle and splitring work almost as well as a magnet+cardboard
ziptie provides on/off switch for laserpointer (only shown in the pen picture)
Also, a balancing stick seems less sensitive/less jiggly than a bubble or a laserpointer
and unlike a laserpointer, it requires no "wall" to observe laserdot
And if you put the balancing stick at an angle accross your angle degree wedge,
you can still track horizontal (maintain angle) rather easily when you pivot to follow the curve

9iGDJi5 sharpening-laserpointer-bubblejig-goniometer-popsiclestick-dmtaligner-lansky - Album on Imgur
sharpening-101-gonio-bubble-jig-701.jpg

sharpening-200-goniobalancetubemagnet-200.jpg

sharpening-201-goniobalancetubemagnet-201.jpg

sharpening-330-goniobalancetubemagnet-330.jpg

sharpening-332-goniobalancetubemagnet-332.jpg

sharpening-334-goniobalancetubemagnet-334.jpg

sharpening-335-goniobalancetubemagnet-335.jpg

sharpening-440-goniokeychainlaser-440.jpg

sharpening-441-goniokeychainlaser-441.jpg

sharpening-442-goniopenlaser-442.jpg

sharpening-550-gonio-balance-pencil-splitring-550.jpg

sharpening-552-gonio-balance-pencil-splitring-552.jpg

sharpening-882-popsicle-binderclip-dmt-aligner-lansky-882.jpg

sharpening-885-popsicle-binderclip-dmt-aligner-lansky-885.jpg

sharpening-887-popsicle-binderclip-dmt-aligner-lansky-887.jpg

sharpening-888-popsicle-binderclip-dmt-aligner-lansky-888.jpg


____
Thanks
I don't mow smiling smiley
Re: angle tracking while sharpening
April 24, 2018 08:08AM
SharperAndMover,

Combine my laserpointee with yours for degrees + add the waterleveller or a Angle Cube - and we have a very useful multi purpouse tool.

I shall build a tool like that smiling smiley

Thomas
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