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Naniwa 5000 grit stone; loads like lightning

Posted by ognennyy 
Re: Naniwa 5000 grit stone; loads like lightning
August 16, 2018 03:29PM
Quote
ognennyy
Quote
JSCT
It is good to maintain the thickness of the primary behind the edge but for that is pointless
to use high grit.. maybe 1000 max if you dont want to have deep scratches with your rocking motion.
Once you apex your edge with 1000grit.. forget the rocking motion - just try to adjust an appropriate
angle f.e. 15dps and try to hold it accurately. No rush.
Forget what virtuovice is obsessed with in his videos smiling smiley
Just go straight to 3000 and keep angle, alterante sides each pass,
use almost no pressure and ensure you are on your edge.
If you have a problem with technique just make passes slow.

There is no point to want to have full convex to the very edge other than visual.
if you have bevel there instaead of full convex it is a lot easier to observe
and diagnose problems as well.

I don't care what the apex looks like, I just want it to be sharp. I'll give this method a go on my next few knives I sharpen, thanks man.

I used this approach to sharpen a new bark river fox river in 3V. I got what I would consider a very sharp edge. Thanks again for the advice.
Re: Naniwa 5000 grit stone; loads like lightning
August 17, 2018 09:49AM
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ognennyy
Thanks for those vids. I see a lot in common between those videos, as well as all videos created by experienced knife sharpeners.

1) They don't use a lot of different stones. For example they go straight from a 1000 to a 6000. They do not use a lot of transition stones
2) They use very little pressure. When I watch them it seems almost impossible to me that they could get the results they do with such little pressure.
3) Almost a simple conclusion from the above two; they take off very little metal, and spend very little time on the stones.

On average when I sharpen a knife I use wwwwwaaaaaayyyyy more pressure than those videos. I sometimes use 600, 1000, 2000, 3000, then 5000 stones. I spend almost 15 minutes on each of those stones. I must take off 10 times as much metal as they do in these videos. In the end I get a satisfactorily sharp edge.

The thing is: Rarely some of them choses to demonstrate sharpening skills on a knife thats quite dull,
with thick geometry and made of wear resistant steel like elmax..

Another thing is: Do all your sharpening/apexing with lower grits up to 1000 approximately.
So lets say u start w 1000grit when everything is well done after 1000 grit stone
it takes very little time to just refine the edge and progress with higher grits..
If You have to spend so long on every grit it means you havent done
enough work on that 1000 stone. It must shave arm and "at least" "almost pushcut" newsprint
before going higher..

www.instagram.com/jscuttingtools



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/17/2018 09:51AM by JSCT.
Re: Naniwa 5000 grit stone; loads like lightning
August 18, 2018 09:26AM
Quote
JSCT
Quote
ognennyy
Thanks for those vids. I see a lot in common between those videos, as well as all videos created by experienced knife sharpeners.

1) They don't use a lot of different stones. For example they go straight from a 1000 to a 6000. They do not use a lot of transition stones
2) They use very little pressure. When I watch them it seems almost impossible to me that they could get the results they do with such little pressure.
3) Almost a simple conclusion from the above two; they take off very little metal, and spend very little time on the stones.

On average when I sharpen a knife I use wwwwwaaaaaayyyyy more pressure than those videos. I sometimes use 600, 1000, 2000, 3000, then 5000 stones. I spend almost 15 minutes on each of those stones. I must take off 10 times as much metal as they do in these videos. In the end I get a satisfactorily sharp edge.

The thing is: Rarely some of them choses to demonstrate sharpening skills on a knife thats quite dull,
with thick geometry and made of wear resistant steel like elmax..

Another thing is: Do all your sharpening/apexing with lower grits up to 1000 approximately.
So lets say u start w 1000grit when everything is well done after 1000 grit stone
it takes very little time to just refine the edge and progress with higher grits..
If You have to spend so long on every grit it means you havent done
enough work on that 1000 stone. It must shave arm and "at least" "almost pushcut" newsprint
before going higher..

This just reinforces your recommendation in my other thread about the snagging belly line. I don't get anywhere near push cut sharpness on my 1000 stone.

Recently I have stopped using my #1000 Naniwa Superstone. It is very, very smooth and soft, and breaks down very quickly like the #5000 Naniwa Superstone I have. So I do not like using it for sharpening / apexing. It's a good stone and has its uses I'm sure. I'm starting to think it will be better suited for my kitchen knives with straighter blades, made of steels that are less wear resistant than 3V and Elmax.

As a substitute for a #1000 stone I have been using my Naniwa Professional Chosera #600 stone. It cuts very quickly on my A2 steel BRKT knives, and a little less quick on my 3V and Elmax knives. It feels smooth, and does not load no matter how long I use it. You can see the steel particle build up on top of the stone, but a quick rinse and it's good to go. I never have to level it mid-sharpening, or create a slurry.

When I look at its finish under the microscope I can see that it leaves a very pronounced, toothy scratch pattern and rough apex. I like the stone but I wonder if with such a toothy, rough finish I could ever get an "almost push cut sharp" blade. After using this stone I can slice cut printer paper fairly well. But if I try to turn the blade to different angles mid-cut, it will start tearing the paper. But not as sharp as you're describing.

I think the truth is, I have never experienced what most people would consider a #1000 stone. Besides the two I mentioned above the only other stone I have close to that grit is a Shapton #2000 ceramic stone, which is very very fine and smooth. A month or so ago I had my eye on a King #1000 or a Naniwa Professional Chosera #800 or #1000. But I think I'll stick with what I have for now and see if I can first get my knives sharp enough to shave arm hair with my #600 Chosera.

Thanks man.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/18/2018 09:28AM by ognennyy.
Re: Naniwa 5000 grit stone; loads like lightning
August 18, 2018 05:11PM
Naniwa superstone are soft bond stones optimized to sharpen wide bevels of japanese
kitchen knives made of simple carbon steels..
(Your Bark Rivers are opposite - narrow bevels made of wear resistant steels)

You need harder stones for your bark rivers.. yes chosera line is harder..
(previously you would often say just naniwa 5000 so I didnt know its superstone or not)

So try to apex on chosera 600 and then try to use that shapton 2000
(if its harder than your naniva superstones)
That should be less inoptimal than previously..

www.instagram.com/jscuttingtools
Re: Naniwa 5000 grit stone; loads like lightning
August 19, 2018 09:37AM
Quote
JSCT
Naniwa superstone are soft bond stones optimized to sharpen wide bevels of japanese
kitchen knives made of simple carbon steels..
(Your Bark Rivers are opposite - narrow bevels made of wear resistant steels)

You need harder stones for your bark rivers.. yes chosera line is harder..
(previously you would often say just naniwa 5000 so I didnt know its superstone or not)

This is why I originally started this thread. I just assumed that as the grit level goes up, the sharper a blade you can achieve. So I was very frustrated when my BRKT knives actually seemed to get duller after putting them on the Naniwa Superstone #5000. I think my Naniwa Superstone #1000 and #5000 I will use for my Wusthoff 8" chef knife, which has a relatively wide bevel compared to - as you've pointed out - my BRKT hunting knives.



Quote
JSCT
So try to apex on chosera 600 and then try to use that shapton 2000
(if its harder than your naniva superstones)
That should be less inoptimal than previously..

Last time I sharpened one of my BRKT A2 knives a few days ago I tried this method. Only difference was I went from the Naniwa Chosera #600 up to Naniwa Chosera #3000 instead of Shapton #2000. The Naniwa Choser #3000 and Shapton #2000 seem to perform very similarly, and so far I like them both equally. Really only difference I see is the Chosera cost twice as much. I think I will try both equally as finish stones throughout the coming hunting season and see which I prefer most. Whichever I do not prefer maybe I can trade for an apex stone closer to #1000, like Cerrax / King #1000, or Chosera #800 / #1000.
Re: Naniwa 5000 grit stone; loads like lightning
August 19, 2018 04:23PM
I assume king to be similar to superstone..
I have cerax 1000 that use mostly for AEB-L its great but when sharpening Vanadis 4 Extra
(more wear restant than 3V) I felt I am going to the stone limit..
Maybe can try Sigma Select 2 1000 - its very dark blue color..
Its designed to cut fast wear resistant steels..

www.instagram.com/jscuttingtools
Re: Naniwa 5000 grit stone; loads like lightning
August 19, 2018 07:24PM
How about 15V and Vanacron 40? Besides the one you linked me above, I have my eye on these two knives, in the two steels I just mentioned.

[inetkuznec.ru]
[inetkuznec.ru]

63, and 64 HRC but I remember someone once mentioning that hardness does not always equate to wear resistance. How do 15V and Vanacron 40 rate up to 3V / Elmax for wear resistance? Is the Sigma Select 2 #1000 hard enough for sharpening steels like 15V, Vanacron, or S125V? If I'm going to buy one of those knives next season, I may as well get the correct stone for them as well.
Re: Naniwa 5000 grit stone; loads like lightning
August 20, 2018 06:54AM
Quote
ognennyy
How about 15V and Vanacron 40? Besides the one you linked me above, I have my eye on these two knives, in the two steels I just mentioned.

[inetkuznec.ru]
[inetkuznec.ru]

63, and 64 HRC but I remember someone once mentioning that hardness does not always equate to wear resistance. How do 15V and Vanacron 40 rate up to 3V / Elmax for wear resistance? Is the Sigma Select 2 #1000 hard enough for sharpening steels like 15V, Vanacron, or S125V? If I'm going to buy one of those knives next season, I may as well get the correct stone for them as well.

Well, technically diamonds sharpen everything.. I am not going to try to estimate how much
faster atoma diamond plate would be than sigma.. But you should be able to sharpen
them on sigma as well.. Things like S30V, 154CM, D2, Elmax, 3V etc are absolutely
no problem for sigma.. but things like S90V, 10V, and over (S125V, 15V..)
can be time consuming to sharpen even on diamonds..

Hard doesnt mean wear resistant its a totally different property.
(for example AEB-L at 60HRC is less wear resistant - easier to grind
than elmax which isnt hardened at all at some 28HRC)

At so high values of hardness and wear resistance of knives you linked,
I think comparison of these dont matter, it is unllikely you will be able to dull
edges only by abrasion. Also none of these is stainless and if you chip the edge
would take ages to repair it.. I dont recommend any thing more wear resistant
than M390 unless you are really good at sharpening..
Also If I would need to decide between the 2 knives you linked
I would do so based on ergonomy rather than steel.

www.instagram.com/jscuttingtools
Re: Naniwa 5000 grit stone; loads like lightning
August 22, 2018 02:07PM
Quote
JSCT
I dont recommend any thing more wear resistant
than M390 unless you are really good at sharpening..
Also If I would need to decide between the 2 knives you linked
I would do so based on ergonomy rather than steel.

I'll take your word for that. I think I'd be cool with an M390 blade. He even has Elmax knives on the site there, and I like my Elmax knife (takes a great edge) I guess I'm not even so concerned with the steel, it's more that I want to branch away from BRKT knives.
Re: Naniwa 5000 grit stone; loads like lightning
September 17, 2018 12:54AM
ognennyy

Just FYI about the stones. I have the Chosera and Shapton sets and they work great with convex bevels...as they should. I have some BRKT’s in A2 and one in CPM154. I have the Naniwa superstone 10k and it does load fast, feels like a solid block of soft plastic or hard glue and needs a thin slurry and regular nagura cleaning while using it. That said, it’s a great stone for polishing. I don’t like using it because it feels terrible and not like a waterstone at all but the polish speaks for itself.

I polish the whole bevel on convex knives as I like to keep them from thickening as this is what will occur if you don’t thin the whole bevel. It need not be done on every sharpening. You can do it in sections and blend, or rock the blade, both work if you do it correctly. Besides, I like a high polish.

I wouldn’t recommend superstones for A2 simply because 1) I lack experience with all but the 10k; and 2) they/it feels like plastic, but you can get by. The Shapton 5k is an excellent stone in my experience, doesn’t load much once you get the right slurry consistency. It takes off a lot of metal for a 5k stone.

A good Nagura stone for the magnesia bond stones (Shapton, Chosera, Junpaku, A-3) is simply a diamond pocket stone so you make the slurry from the stone itself.

Just my experience.

As to steels, I still believe 1095 takes the best edge I’ve ever come across. I’ve got some high carbide steels such as S30V, S90V, S110V, and they present their own unique problems associated with extra costs of new diamond sharpening equipment and a vast lack of choice in it. I’d rather steels like 1095, 01, A2 etc. For stainless- 440C, 12C27, and CPM 154 is good, takes an excellent edge and sharpens easy on the aforementioned stones.

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Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 09/17/2018 01:04AM by Wolfgang.
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