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Carter-Stanley Method of Sharpening

Posted by CliffStamp 
Carter-Stanley Method of Sharpening
June 14, 2020 07:36PM
Ok, now to be clear, I was skeptical at first - is this just a sellout? Carter used to aggressively promote that the exact stones you needed didn't matter, you just needed two stones, you didn't need to flatten them, etc. - very basic on tools, very high on skills.

#1 : [www.youtube.com]

-Al backing plate means you can use every bit of the abrasive, stones are very durable
-you can use other stones in this system
-ATPPJ, assessment, thinning,profiling,polishing,jointing
-last molecule principle
-three finger test of sharpness
-the importance of lapping (flat, clean, maximum cutting)
Re: Carter-Stanley Method of Sharpening
June 14, 2020 07:42PM
#2 - Expedient Method

[www.youtube.com]

Here basically Murray runs through the process very fast, and the comments are quite telling :

"It feels to me like disrespecting the knife. If my tomatoes are waiting I would never waste time with "thinning" down the knife. He treated it like some construction knife and achieved nothing (well maybe few ten thousands of an inch thinning?). Few strokes on lower grit, few strokes on medium, few on high and and get rid of the burr without cutting in the stone. Murray suggested a technique that actually can throw you back tens of minutes back with cutting into the stone. He has the skill I don't believe many cooks sharpened that many knives as Murray to have such a delicate feeling to get rid of the burr by cutting into the stone. Maybe just maybe raising the angle of sharpening by a slightest will achieve the same without risk? It use cork or wood I bet you have some in the kitchen.
Not to mention the final edge is quite horrible. Leave the thinning to the afternoon part and from 15 um go to 5 and then 1 um same amount of time. Visuals of the knife are saved and you achieved actually a sharp edge"

and similar, there are no response to the harsh criticisms at all.
Re: Carter-Stanley Method of Sharpening
June 14, 2020 07:56PM
#3 Extended Method :

[www.youtube.com]

-this is a long video, ~40 mins

It is basically the same procedure, just in much more detail. One of the things I think isn't that clear is that after you have done all of that, the next time you are likely just going to sharpen the edge itself. On an amusing note, the sharpener cuts his hand ~24 mins in which is a danger of keeping your hands on the stone and grinding in that manner.

The comments are still kind of harsh, and again there is no answer :

"Your old King Stone do the job just fine"

"this is an infomercial. The dumb sprayer bottle when you can have a bucket of water. the dumb tray that they kept talking about. All the stones to flatten the sharpening stone. The fact that they edited out the "master" in a kimono cutting his finger like a ******. Carter sharpened a knife on a cement ****** block and honed it on news paper. Carter took an old *** neck knife and honed it to the point where he shaved off his entire beard with it before trimming it down."


Kind of inflammatory, but does raise a point. This system is leagues more expensive than what Carter used to advocate/sell.
Re: Carter-Stanley Method of Sharpening
June 14, 2020 08:04PM
#4 - Expedient Pocket Knife Sharpening

[www.youtube.com]

One point that stands out to me when they talk about looking down the knife, if you have a bend in modern pocket knife blades I don't think you can straighten that easily. In the assessments steps there is never any issues, you really need to deal with some problems.

The "thinning" he does lasts a ~2 minutes, I am not sure how much thinning you can do on a modern pocket knife with that short an amount of time aside from just scratching it up kind of harshly. I would like to see a cutting demonstration which shows the difference that the thinning makes.
Re: Carter-Stanley Method of Sharpening
June 14, 2020 08:06PM
Cliff,
Those stones were promoted pretty heavily, even I was approached and was supposed to get a set, but I never did. Stanley use to be the Shapton guy in the USA, they parted ways and he came up with these stones. I have no problem with these two being enterprising. I do find it odd that people were also critical of Carter when he just said use a King 1k and 6k. Just goes to show you can't please everyone. People have been complaining for years that the King stones Murray was using would cut 'modern steels'. Now that he changes up, and collaborates with a fellow sharpener, with stones that will cut those steels more efficiently(supposedly), he gets flak. That being said, that whole set up is wildly overpriced. Not by a little either. I think it is interesting about the technique they both came up with, it is basically Carters system with Stanley's jointing of the edge at the end.

___________________________________________________________________________________________
"Gotta love living in 2019 baby, (63rc too soft on a production knife)" -- Shawn Houston
"But can it cut a bamboo skewer?" -- Kyley Harris
"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp
"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration" -- Roman Landes
"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' " -- Sal Glesser
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Re: Carter-Stanley Method of Sharpening
June 14, 2020 08:07PM
#5 - Extended Neck Knife

[www.youtube.com]

It would be nice to make it clear that the thinning they are doing is maintenance. Because they do it all the time (?) the edge never really gets thick. Nothing significant will happen with a few minutes of thinning IF the knife had a thick edge in the beginning.
Re: Carter-Stanley Method of Sharpening
June 14, 2020 08:17PM
#6 - Advanced :

[www.youtube.com]

-sharpen with both hands
-keeping the slurry off the handle of finished knives
-direction of the "teeth" cut into the edge
Re: Carter-Stanley Method of Sharpening
June 14, 2020 08:22PM
Quote
jasonstone20

I do find it odd that people were also critical of Carter when he just said use a King 1k and 6k. Just goes to show you can't please everyone.

Carter catches criticism at times because he can be so extreme. I have always tried to be clear that while I could just use one stone, I certainly appreciated different ones.

-vitrified oil stones are great for simple steels
-friable/open bond SiC stones are great for high carbide steels

Then :

-very muddy stones are great for minimizing a burr
-non-friable abrasives are great for finishing an apex

That system that Carter has is such an extreme change from what he was adamant about for years it is obvious that a lot of people would be critical. I just wish there was more interaction with viewers. I find it odd people put up videos and never interact with the audience.
Re: Carter-Stanley Method of Sharpening
June 14, 2020 08:36PM
Quote
CliffStamp
Quote
jasonstone20

I do find it odd that people were also critical of Carter when he just said use a King 1k and 6k. Just goes to show you can't please everyone.



That system that Carter has is such an extreme change from what he was adamant about for years it is obvious that a lot of people would be critical. I just wish there was more interaction with viewers. I find it odd people put up videos and never interact with the audience.

Yes, it kind of defeats the purpose of social media. I did email Carter years ago, and he responded to me, which I thought was decent of him.

___________________________________________________________________________________________
"Gotta love living in 2019 baby, (63rc too soft on a production knife)" -- Shawn Houston
"But can it cut a bamboo skewer?" -- Kyley Harris
"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp
"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration" -- Roman Landes
"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' " -- Sal Glesser
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cKc
Re: Carter-Stanley Method of Sharpening
June 15, 2020 11:24AM
he has released his dvd for free now

3hrs long




----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not Cliff, its Dr Stamp
#kebabstickcut, it's a thing - make it happen
Re: Carter-Stanley Method of Sharpening
June 17, 2020 04:15PM
Admittedly, I'm still a relative novice to sharpening, but having said that: I saw the first video the other day and cringed super hard at the "thinning" step. I do understand the purpose of thinning to maintain edge geometry etc. but that felt like just gratuitously scratching the entire side of the knife aggressively with minimal impact on actual edge thickness. Maybe you're right Cliff that it's meant to be a continuous maintenance thing where if you do that every time it keeps the edge geometry long term?

It's definitely not hard to see where the criticism comes into play when someone like Murray Carter goes from a minimalist, cheap(er) materials approach to one of the most expensive freehand systems available and then markets it with what amounts to an infomercial.

As far as the Nano Hone itself - never used it, but assuming the performance is similar then I don't think the pricing is out of line, at least when comparing it against its obvious competitor the Shapton Glass series. SG is priced similarly yet with significantly thinner stones. Likewise for the rest of the system (pond, "stage", lapping plates etc.) all of which is in the same price range.

Granted, if there's one thing I've learned from Cliff & several of the other members of this forum it's that you certainly don't need the most expensive stones on the market to sharpen well. But if you're already firmly in the "I buy expensive abrasives" camp it's at least on par with the competition.
Re: Carter-Stanley Method of Sharpening
June 17, 2020 05:23PM
Quote
jloden
Maybe you're right Cliff that it's meant to be a continuous maintenance thing where if you do that every time it keeps the edge geometry long term?

I think the point to take away here isn't that you should take your most coarse diamond stone and make a few passes on the primary grind of your knife and expect anything to happen - BUT - just rather realize that cutting performance is controlled by that grind significantly and if you want to maximize performance then you need to work on that as well. I hesitate to call that sharpening though, it would just seem odd to me, I mean if you look at someone grinding primary bevels on a knife it isn't like you call that sharpening, so I don't see why adjusting them would be either. It kind of confuses sharpness with cutting ability.

Quote

It's definitely not hard to see where the criticism comes into play when someone like Murray Carter goes from a minimalist, cheap(er) materials approach to one of the most expensive freehand systems available and then markets it with what amounts to an infomercial.

Yeah, people change though. I just wish he would talk a little more about the change especially since it was such a radical departure.
Re: Carter-Stanley Method of Sharpening
June 17, 2020 05:38PM
Cliff,
I think he talks about it here:
[www.youtube.com]




and here:

[www.youtube.com]




___________________________________________________________________________________________
"Gotta love living in 2019 baby, (63rc too soft on a production knife)" -- Shawn Houston
"But can it cut a bamboo skewer?" -- Kyley Harris
"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp
"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration" -- Roman Landes
"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' " -- Sal Glesser
WordPress YouTube Facebook Patreon Locals
cKc
Re: Carter-Stanley Method of Sharpening
June 17, 2020 08:05PM
in murrays old videos he always talks about sharpening a knife as a multiple step process.

always thinning a little at the start of each sharpening sessions so that over the life of the knife you don't result in a secondary edge getting thicker and thicker..

so his process was always.. thin the blade, sharpen the edge.
not sharpen 30 times, then do a big thinning session.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not Cliff, its Dr Stamp
#kebabstickcut, it's a thing - make it happen
Re: Carter-Stanley Method of Sharpening
June 17, 2020 08:54PM
Quote
CliffStamp

Yeah, people change though. I just wish he would talk a little more about the change especially since it was such a radical departure.

100% agree. I don’t have any problem with someone changing their opinions (in fact if it’s done because they learned or grew in the intervening time I think it shows good character and common sense). But it certainly doesn’t hurt to give it a little more of a segue especially if you are widely known for espousing a completely different philosophy previously.

Quote
cKc
in murrays old videos he always talks about sharpening a knife as a multiple step process.

always thinning a little at the start of each sharpening sessions so that over the life of the knife you don't result in a secondary edge getting thicker and thicker..

That’s what I was guessing. I’m not super familiar with his older videos having only seen a couple shorter clips - but that’s the only way it makes sense to me in some sort of context beyond what was in that introductory video. Still makes me cringe sticking a knife with nice clean flats onto a 220 stone and scratching it immensely with a few hard passes though

-----

-Jay
cKc
Re: Carter-Stanley Method of Sharpening
June 17, 2020 09:19PM
i think in part that was just to keep it short. I've never seen him do that in any older videos..

he'd always do it on the simple grits.. 1k, gk, leaving a smooth primary face. but he'd always say that you should be worried more on performance than looks.

he doesn't believe in trying to retain the cosmetic nature of the knife from what I've seen

----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not Cliff, its Dr Stamp
#kebabstickcut, it's a thing - make it happen
Re: Carter-Stanley Method of Sharpening
June 18, 2020 07:36AM
Quote
cKc
i think in part that was just to keep it short. I've never seen him do that in any older videos..

he'd always do it on the simple grits.. 1k, gk, leaving a smooth primary face. but he'd always say that you should be worried more on performance than looks.

he doesn't believe in trying to retain the cosmetic nature of the knife from what I've seen

Exactly why I don't care for nice satin finishes, I'd much prefer just a rough CNC machined or low grit belt finish... that way anything I do to the knife could only clean it up nicer. Compare that to the other way around, where anything I do on the stones is only going to seriously look wonky next to the nice Scotch Brite wheel satin job on the rest of the knife.

Actually the uglier the better, the uglier it is the more you actually might question whether the knife deserves to be treated with any sense of kindness or should be cared for. You'd likely feel more like anything you ask it to do is just like feeding it lunch, to keep it alive looking even uglier the older it gets... smileys with beer. Such emphasis is put on finishes, so far as saying you cannot sell a knife that is "unfinished"... in that it's somehow unacceptable.

Many makers even go so far as to completely ruin a knife (in my eyes anyways) by putting a horrible & difficult to remove powder coating over the entire blade. This completely prevents you from actually doing any work to maintain or change the geometry of the knife to suit you cutting style/tasks. On the bright side, I think I found a good way of stripping these monsters using Miles Chemical Solutions REMOVE 9000 or 9001 non-toxic remover... so at least I don't have to risk bodily harm trying to 'fix' the knife that was sold to me unusable.
cKc
Re: Carter-Stanley Method of Sharpening
June 18, 2020 08:21AM
Quote

Actually the uglier the better, the uglier it is the more you actually might question whether the knife deserves to be treated with any sense of kindness or should be cared for. You'd likely feel more like anything you ask it to do is just like feeding it lunch, to keep it alive looking even uglier the older it gets... smileys with beer. Such emphasis is put on finishes, so far as saying you cannot sell a knife that is "unfinished"... in that it's somehow unacceptable.

yeah. i would typically rather have a finish that is fairly basic, but not rough.. but no extra $100 an hour labour added to polish something that will be removed on first use.
sure you want the steel sealed.. but not overdone at high cost.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not Cliff, its Dr Stamp
#kebabstickcut, it's a thing - make it happen
Re: Carter-Stanley Method of Sharpening
June 18, 2020 09:33AM
I had already watched those videos before this thread was posted, my thoughts...

They both seem genuine in their views towards the products, they don't seem like they are just marketing something.

To my views, they seem to offer a system that gives you something nobody has really yet to date.

The sharpening ponds are pricey, but are extremely well constructed and THAT is NOT cheap to produce well... so I wouldn't expect it to be cheap to buy.

The idea of sharpening all the way to the last bit of stone is compelling, over time (reads: years) you'd likely get some money back out of using the system to get every last bit of sharpening out of your stones.

Have no ideas on the actual abrasives they sell, but the solid sintered buttons on the diamond lapping plates look like a huge innovation that is desperately needed in the world of lapping. I genuinely trust that you will not wear one of those out in a lifetime, but they do not recommend using with ceramic water stones... which is a bummer.
Re: Carter-Stanley Method of Sharpening
June 18, 2020 03:04PM
[www.bladeforums.com]

___________________________________________________________________________________________
"Gotta love living in 2019 baby, (63rc too soft on a production knife)" -- Shawn Houston
"But can it cut a bamboo skewer?" -- Kyley Harris
"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp
"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration" -- Roman Landes
"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' " -- Sal Glesser
WordPress YouTube Facebook Patreon Locals
Re: Carter-Stanley Method of Sharpening
June 21, 2020 04:57PM
Response (Jeff Jewell) :

[www.youtube.com]

-extremely expensive
-flatness of the diamond plate is maybe unnecessary
-stones are similar to Shapton Glass
Re: Carter-Stanley Method of Sharpening
June 21, 2020 05:09PM
Another :

[www.youtube.com]

They are basically splash and go waterstones, not even sure why they didn't just use a known line of stones and provide a system for it. This just puts out another product that users have to try to figure out how they behave and since stones have little to no information from the manufacturer, it is like getting knives made out of "steel".

On a curious note, you can see in this video, an experienced user with the bess getting > 30% one shot differences from one reading to the next on his initial sharpness. If you take a reading like 70 and then another at 100, having a machine which is rated to 1 gram is simply absurd, all you are doing is measuring noise. There isn't even a benefit in having a precision < 10 g.
Re: Carter-Stanley Method of Sharpening
June 21, 2020 07:34PM
Quote
CliffStamp
This just puts out another product that users have to try to figure out how they behave and since stones have little to no information from the manufacturer, it is like getting knives made out of "steel".

This has been one of the most consistent sources of frustration for me in the last couple of years. The things that you and the rest of us used to discuss about stones, things like UCP and LCP when using specific types of steel on a given stone, are almost never something I’ve been able to find in other places. This forum that you made is the only place where I’ve come across discussion that is detailed and honest enough to get information that’s actually useful on that level.

If you or anybody else here or elsewhere is curious about my observations of the Naniwa SuperStone 1,000 as an example of that, compared to the 400, I can discuss some of my observations and experiences of it. It’s been a useful stone, to be sure, but not nearly as broadly useful as the 400 version.

Quote
CliffStamp
If you take a reading like 70 and then another at 100, having a machine which is rated to 1 gram is simply absurd, all you are doing is measuring noise. There isn't even a benefit in having a precision < 10 g.

That’s a very good point/argument. The same sort of observation, the basic signal-to-noise ratio, is why I’ve mostly accepted the idea that I have to rely on people who are both rigorous enough to do the work and honest enough to report it in a reliable and at least not terribly-biased or misleading way. I understand the methodology and experiments, but I am usually not willing to do the work. So I’d rather discuss it, relate their observations to my own, do what I can to search for bias and/or fallacies, and go from there.

It’s usually not in my nature to do that level of work for what I consider to be a rather obsessive and nerd-like hobby. I have a hard enough time doing my own laundry and grocery shopping on a weekly basis, let alone some kind of elaborate and careful experiment.

It’s why I’ve decided to take what I consider to be currently-known information about steels, based largely on information provided by you, Kyley, Jeremy, Joe, etc. and simply generalize it with what’s also known about certain stones and how they behave, and use that as a basis for purchasing decisions and what I want the knife to do.
Re: Carter-Stanley Method of Sharpening
June 21, 2020 08:08PM
In general, no one can learn everything, at some point you have to trust people, and it is difficult, covid-sars-2 is an obvious and glaring example of that, as few people can look at the research so how does the average person know what do to?

With knives and steels it is a lot simpler, and the general rules I would apply are in general useful :

-ask someone WHY they hold a particular perspective, what is the data that supports it

Most people won't provide it, well you can ignore them. The hard part is IF they do you have to be able to make an intelligent decision on if that data is valid. If you can't, look at how they disagree with other people do they stick to facts/evidence, do they rely on logic or are they just using rhetorical devices?
Re: Carter-Stanley Method of Sharpening
June 21, 2020 08:59PM
Quote
CliffStamp
- ask someone WHY they hold a particular perspective, what is the data that supports it

Most people won't provide it, well you can ignore them. The hard part is IF they do you have to be able to make an intelligent decision on if that data is valid. If you can't, look at how they disagree with other people do they stick to facts/evidence, do they rely on logic or are they just using rhetorical devices?

Yup. I’m not some kind of professional philosopher or hard science research professor, but I understand basic experimental methodology and have a decent grasp on logic and epistemological principals, both intuitively and factually/scholarly. It also helps a lot that I’m not at all concerned about or wary of conflict.


Rhetorical devices are sometimes just a little bit tricky because they might seem to be logical upon first inspection, only showing themselves to be nonsensical or wrong after a very careful or deliberate analysis.

What I’ve noticed is that rhetorical devices can either be a very sharp and ruthless way of conveying a known thing, invented by someone who’s clever and knows the facts before making/inventing the device, or they can be a poor excuse for real knowledge that’s made up by a person who merely wants to feel like they know something. The former of the two types are what I try to use, and if people ask for more information or why I think that’s a good explanation, then I tell them.
Re: Carter-Stanley Method of Sharpening
June 22, 2020 05:26PM
Quote
CliffStamp
Quote
jloden
Maybe you're right Cliff that it's meant to be a continuous maintenance thing where if you do that every time it keeps the edge geometry long term?

I think the point to take away here isn't that you should take your most coarse diamond stone and make a few passes on the primary grind of your knife and expect anything to happen - BUT - just rather realize that cutting performance is controlled by that grind significantly and if you want to maximize performance then you need to work on that as well. I hesitate to call that sharpening though, it would just seem odd to me, I mean if you look at someone grinding primary bevels on a knife it isn't like you call that sharpening, so I don't see why adjusting them would be either. It kind of confuses sharpness with cutting ability.

Quote

It's definitely not hard to see where the criticism comes into play when someone like Murray Carter goes from a minimalist, cheap(er) materials approach to one of the most expensive freehand systems available and then markets it with what amounts to an infomercial.

Yeah, people change though. I just wish he would talk a little more about the change especially since it was such a radical departure.

I do think there may be something to be said first, regarding context. Carter advocates Japanese clad knives as superior due to the their ease of maintenance, which you actually can get quite a bit of work done to thin in small amount of time with a good stone/knife combination. I actually think that a bit of thinning up front can save you time on the back end by thinning out the edge bevels, considering by thinning the edge a bit you can get much higher pressures grinding the edge. Especially, when looking at common RC measurements of Japanese knives the core steel is typically anywhere from 60-65... which is much harder to grind in general.
Re: Carter-Stanley Method of Sharpening
October 02, 2020 12:47PM
Pro-sharpener comments on Carter/Stanely/Nanohone
[www.youtube.com]




___________________________________________________________________________________________
"Gotta love living in 2019 baby, (63rc too soft on a production knife)" -- Shawn Houston
"But can it cut a bamboo skewer?" -- Kyley Harris
"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp
"Cause geometry cuts, .....steel determines the level and the duration" -- Roman Landes
"But in general, I'm all about high performance, Ergos, safety. That's why I've been accused of 'designing in the dark' " -- Sal Glesser
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