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Tormek T-4

Posted by jasonstone20 
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Tormek T-4
July 14, 2020 11:49PM

This will be useful once I figure out how to use it. I thinned out a $0.99 paring knife. I also sharpened it, and got it sharper than I had been able to get this knife, as these are usually difficult to sharpen past shaving sharp. I got this one tree-topping. I didn't use the stone ehen it had the finer grade set on it, I only used the coarse. It ground pretty fast. The knife turned out ugly, but it cuts way better. I just need to practice. I sharpened my PM2, and got ok results. There are just a lot of adjustments and angles on this machine that can be used.




"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: Tormek T-4
July 15, 2020 12:23AM
Every now and again I get semi-seriously interested in those and I don't even know why, and then I watch something like this :

[www.youtube.com]

That is slow for a mechanized system, ~5 mins for a two grit edge and then strop. I don't know why they don't have two wheels, one coarse and one fine and then a paddle strop.

That guy uses way too much compound as an aside, only the part on top matters, so a thick layer is a waste.

I find it odd with all the care they take and promote for angles and edge up with the actual stage which matters the most for angle, the one which sets the apex having no angle control.

I would be curious what utility you see this having over a two stone setup.

I am also interested if the hollow ground edge it applies has any significant effects in use.
Re: Tormek T-4
July 15, 2020 01:05AM
Cliff,
Yeah, that is a good point. I got the machine to mostly do regrinds. Roman Landes also recommended one to me, but he told me to throw out the instructions, lol! I don't think you should have to take that long to sharpen a knife on the system. The machine cuts way faster than by hand. If the edge is already profiled, you are literally only needed to do one, maybe two passes per side to get a burr, then another one or two to minimize the burr. It takes maybe double that to reprofile, and you can just sit there in grind in one spot, and the blade remains ice cold. Once I figure out all the directions, because I didn't take that part of Roman's recommendation, as I kept the instructions.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: Tormek T-4
July 15, 2020 02:14AM
I have not used it, but the abrasive speed (in feet per minute on the Tormek is very low) I would be surprised if it does regrinds fast. As a couple of examples :

-Cedric flattened a hollow to a flat grind, on a small easy to grind knife in 40 mins

-chisel repair of some nicks, 2-3 minutes

This is comparable to what I would do with a coarse stone (100-200 fpm), which is what I would expect as I can generate a similar speed. In comparison a high end grinder can be 7500 fpm. They literally will take a piece of bar stock and put on a primary grind in 1-2 passes. This sounds like completely fantasy until you watch Ray Ennis do that on video, and it looks like he is grinding a stick of butter but it is D2 after it was fully hardened, it isn't even annealed.

The main reason the Tormek comes off fast is that you are looking at two different things :

-2 grits + stropping for the Tormek

vs

-5-15 grit progression plus often 2-6 grit stropping progression for a lot of the jig systems

If the jig guys just did this :

-set the edge
-apex

They would be much faster, but most of those guys love to sharpen.

It would be interesting to see a speed comparison vs a Norton India Coarse, and I also would be curious on what steels that wheel bogged out on. They do make other wheels for high carbide steels.
cKc
Re: Tormek T-4
July 15, 2020 03:18AM
Quote
jasonstone20

This will be useful once I figure out how to use it. I thinned out a $0.99 paring knife. I also sharpened it, and got it sharper than I had been able to get this knife, as these are usually difficult to sharpen past shaving sharp. I got this one tree-topping. I didn't use the stone ehen it had the finer grade set on it, I only used the coarse. It ground pretty fast. The knife turned out ugly, but it cuts way better. I just need to practice. I sharpened my PM2, and got ok results. There are just a lot of adjustments and angles on this machine that can be used.



I am not sure what this knife looked like before you put it on the Tormek. zooming in, there are so many random facets on that I can't tell whats what.. like trying to convex on a stone but not cleaning it up.

so
Did you use the tormek freehand and do all that,

or was that already there and you freehanded an edge

or did you use the jig and angle guide to grind the edge?

the edge bevel looks inconsistent making me think freehand.

they are a fun machine.

have you got a picture of the PM2, I know what that looked like before hand grinning smiley

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Re: Tormek T-4
July 15, 2020 03:43AM
cKc,
Yeah, I tried grinding it freehand.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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cKc
Re: Tormek T-4
July 15, 2020 04:18AM
Quote
CliffStamp
Every now and again I get semi-seriously interested in those and I don't even know why, and then I watch something like this :

[www.youtube.com]

That is slow for a mechanized system, ~5 mins for a two grit edge and then strop. I don't know why they don't have two wheels, one coarse and one fine and then a paddle strop.

That guy uses way too much compound as an aside, only the part on top matters, so a thick layer is a waste.

I find it odd with all the care they take and promote for angles and edge up with the actual stage which matters the most for angle, the one which sets the apex having no angle control.

I would be curious what utility you see this having over a two stone setup.

I am also interested if the hollow ground edge it applies has any significant effects in use.

depending on the size of the edge I don't think the hollow should have any effect, especially with the power stropping which would prob remove any insignificant hollowing. a microscope evaluation of this would be good

I did this video when Jason first talked about getting a tormek, and looking at the numbers, its a very small size for the type of edges I do, the offset from flat is insignificant




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It's not Cliff, its Dr Stamp
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cKc
Re: Tormek T-4
July 15, 2020 04:29AM
Quote
jasonstone20
cKc,
Yeah, I tried grinding it freehand.

my first free hand attempt on mine was absolute garbage. its very different from a grinding machine

----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not Cliff, its Dr Stamp
#kebabstickcut, it's a thing - make it happen
Re: Tormek T-4
July 15, 2020 04:29AM


This knife was extremely thick behind the edge. I tried to grind it from a Scandi grind to a flat grind by hand, and ended up with a short fat convex. The Tormek cleaned the edge up nicely, this took about 15 min, and was a lot of grinding. The edge came up amazing, I had issues getting this knife sharp ever since I reground it, and I suspected a poor HT or steel. I don't know how many time I have thought the blade steel or HT was the issue, when it was actually my sharpening that was the issue. Interesting that you would post that now, as the Tormek did leave a hollow ground edge, but I did a very low angle and also the edge bevel was around 0.050" behind the edge.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: Tormek T-4
July 15, 2020 04:33AM
I remember when cKc and I went back and forth on this.
Re: Tormek T-4
July 15, 2020 04:44AM
I accidentally ground the knife clamp jig down on the corners on one side. The machine isn't designed for angles lower the 15° DPS.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: Tormek T-4
July 15, 2020 05:54AM
Cliff,
It definitely isn't as fast as a belt sander. I wonder how you could compare grinding speed to a hand stone? Measure the hand stone and count how many passes, vs the ft per min speed of the Tormek, so you would just time the Tormek then I guess. I think everything cuts fast, most of my edges have been reprofiled, and don't suffer that much damage with my use, so I don't have to do repairs with sharpening that often.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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cKc
Re: Tormek T-4
July 15, 2020 05:58AM
Quote
jasonstone20


This knife was extremely thick behind the edge. I tried to grind it from a Scandi grind to a flat grind by hand, and ended up with a short fat convex. The Tormek cleaned the edge up nicely, this took about 15 min, and was a lot of grinding. The edge came up amazing, I had issues getting this knife sharp ever since I reground it, and I suspected a poor HT or steel. I don't know how many time I have thought the blade steel or HT was the issue, when it was actually my sharpening that was the issue. Interesting that you would post that now, as the Tormek did leave a hollow ground edge, but I did a very low angle and also the edge bevel was around 0.050" behind the edge.

Sure it will be hollow when you carve out a massive section.

my edges are no more than 0.004" long.. and any edge smaller than 0.005" is going to be similar. the point is specifically that when doing a small apexing bevel it will be so close to flat as immeasurable. if you go and carve out a big bevel it will be noticeably hollow

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It's not Cliff, its Dr Stamp
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cKc
Re: Tormek T-4
July 15, 2020 06:00AM
Quote
jasonstone20
Cliff,
It definitely isn't as fast as a belt sander. I wonder how you could compare grinding speed to a hand stone? Measure the hand stone and count how many passes, vs the ft per min speed of the Tormek, so you would just time the Tormek then I guess. I think everything cuts fast, most of my edges have been reprofiled, and don't suffer that much damage with my use, so I don't have to do repairs with sharpening that often.

if the tormek is around 220FPM

and a person on an 8" stone scrubbing an avg of 6" scrubs, and you count 1 back and forth as 1ft, then you need to do 220scrubs per minute, 4 full scrubs a second. if you are using a little 6" stone you are unlikely doing more than 3-4" so you need to double triple the number

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It's not Cliff, its Dr Stamp
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Re: Tormek T-4
July 15, 2020 06:06AM
Cliff,
The stone cut S30V pretty well. I can try something a little more wear resistant like the knife I have in M390. I am already getting better at sharpening with it, so I don't mind using my nicer knives with it.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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cKc
Re: Tormek T-4
July 15, 2020 06:11AM
this is the amount of hollow you will get on a 1/4" long bevel. its there. but its small.




0.25
vs
0.005

you will not be able to see or measure the hollow on an apex on one of my knives.

this was from my whusthof reprofile. we are looking at 1mm edge, zoom.. you can clearly see as I start lightly abraiding it that its hollow. but its extremely subtle hollow that was gone almost immediately.. and I have no idea what size wheel it was done on.. but I suspect a very small wheel


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It's not Cliff, its Dr Stamp
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cKc
Re: Tormek T-4
July 15, 2020 06:13AM
Jason. its a very simple test if you are inclined..

make a clean bevel on a knife on the tormek, take a microscope image, then get a fine polish stone and abrade it a few times, and then look and see if it abraides evenly, or if there is a void

----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not Cliff, its Dr Stamp
#kebabstickcut, it's a thing - make it happen
Re: Tormek T-4
July 15, 2020 07:12AM
cKc,
The edge I did earlier on the $0.99 paring knife and on my PM2 looked flat. The Mora I sharpened has a hollow grind in the bevel, because the blade behind the edge is so thick and the bevel so wide. I will see next time I do a knife if it is flat or not, under the microscope like you suggested.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: Tormek T-4
July 15, 2020 02:49PM
Quote
cKc

4 full scrubs a second

There are lots of benchstones which will cut significantly faster than a 220 grit stone, so that cuts the passes down to ~1 pass per second which is fairly slow for hand sharpening at the shaping stage.

The benefit of the tormek looks like once it is setup, in a production style setting, you could easily grind at that speed all day. If I was doing significant regrinds as a profession I would likely want some kind of mechanized setup.

I have never seen anyone do sensible sharpening with it though, they are always conditioning the stone :

-sharpen ALL of the knives on the 220
-then IF necessary condition the stone once, and reset the edges

However, I doubt you even need to condition the stone, for the vast majority of people/knives, you could likely take the 220 edge and then take that to the stropping stage directly, for some knives that would be the ideal finish (anything that slices).
cKc
Re: Tormek T-4
July 15, 2020 04:08PM




this guy has an interesting setup for doing sharpening at fairs etc.

he says he has done over 53,000 knives on a tormek, and 12+ years of sharpening.

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It's not Cliff, its Dr Stamp
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cKc
Re: Tormek T-4
July 15, 2020 04:11PM
at 8:00, he warns buffers build heat and can burn your fingers.. at 8:20 he jumps his finger off the steel. clearly burned.. poor edge...
that happens when you are pushing with more than a feathering effect.

they do built up a tone of heat and need smooth fast passes without pressure

----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not Cliff, its Dr Stamp
#kebabstickcut, it's a thing - make it happen
Re: Tormek T-4
July 15, 2020 06:14PM
Quote
Cliff Stamp
If I was doing significant regrinds as a profession I would likely want some kind of mechanized setup.

That is exactly what I got it for.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: Tormek T-4
July 15, 2020 06:41PM
That was an efficient process :

-15 mins
-jointing the blade
-thinning the profile
-polish the flats
-sharpening

And he had a decent sharpness at the end, that looked close to a push cut on magazine paper.
cKc
Re: Tormek T-4
July 15, 2020 06:56PM
Quote
CliffStamp
That was an efficient process :

-15 mins
-jointing the blade
-thinning the profile
-polish the flats
-sharpening

And he had a decent sharpness at the end, that looked close to a push cut on magazine paper.

yep. he goes from a coarse tormek, to a medium something, to the 6k waterstone on the tormek.. then the buffing..

he talks about how he has all the machines tied to a single on switch, so that its a fast efficient process.. everything laid out like a factory.

i think, when you do that many knives for a job, you work out quick what works for you. even that little 1x42 is a nice setup with trizact belts.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not Cliff, its Dr Stamp
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Re: Tormek T-4
July 15, 2020 09:38PM
Cliff,
I was able to sharpen the M390 without any noticeable difference cutting the other steels. I left the stone on the fine grade, and it put a nice edge on the knife. You can get the blade sharp without forming a burr, you can just check the blade for sharpness readily, so you don't have to grind all the way to a burr. I have found that you form a burr on the tip of the knife faster than anywhere else on the blade. This happened when I sharpened the M390 blade I got from Kyle. The knife got very sharp, up to my expectations of sharpness. I would however prefer to freehand sharpen, it is much simpler and faster. Also, there was no noticeable hollowing from the wheel of the sharpener with the naked eye and by feeling with my fingers. It looks just like an edge you would get from a fixtured system.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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Re: Tormek T-4
July 15, 2020 10:10PM
Remember an edge doesn't have to have a visible hollow to under cut an apex.

A convex edge should have higher edge retention than a flat which should be higher than a hollow due to the way the force loads are. BUT, I have no idea how significant those effects are. It might not be that they are significant at all, that you can't see them.


There are two things of interest :

-can you sharpen a knife
-can you regrind it

A freshly cut AO stone will cut even high carbide steels well (as most of the steel, aside from steels like Maxamet/121 REX) will still be steel. However an AO stone will wear rapidly on high vanadium steels. BUT, most people keep regrinding that stone so it is likely always fresh cutting.
cKc
Re: Tormek T-4
July 16, 2020 09:26AM
Quote
jasonstone20
I accidentally ground the knife clamp jig down on the corners on one side. The machine isn't designed for angles lower the 15° DPS.

well it prob entirely depends on how you clamped it, and the size of the knife. lets not forget Dr Vadim is regularly grinding 11 and 12.5 dps on his commercial bothering knives which are a narrow blade. Aside from any claims he might make, he clearly knows how to use a tormek. have a look at how he sets the blade in the clamps

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It's not Cliff, its Dr Stamp
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cKc
Re: Tormek T-4
July 16, 2020 09:32AM
Quote
CliffStamp
Remember an edge doesn't have to have a visible hollow to under cut an apex.
A convex edge should have higher edge retention than a flat which should be higher than a hollow due to the way the force loads are. BUT, I have no idea how significant those effects are. It might not be that they are significant at all, that you can't see them.

This is the most interesting thing SEM photography could pull up. if you took an avg persons bevel or micro bevel applied by hand on a flar stone, and looked at it under intense microscope compared to the 6k of the tormek stone, could you see a difference? its possible under such scrutiny, but this is why i think they always push that you use the loaded leather wheel last as a finishing. this is going to grind out the hollow on any reasonable small bevel.

when you look at some of the sharpening systems that are automated that literally use 1" or 2" wheels, there is a noticable hollow with a big impact.i think

----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not Cliff, its Dr Stamp
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cKc
Re: Tormek T-4
July 16, 2020 09:54AM
Quote
jasonstone20
Cliff,
I was able to sharpen the M390 without any noticeable difference cutting the other steels. I left the stone on the fine grade, and it put a nice edge on the knife. You can get the blade sharp without forming a burr, you can just check the blade for sharpness readily, so you don't have to grind all the way to a burr. I have found that you form a burr on the tip of the knife faster than anywhere else on the blade. This happened when I sharpened the M390 blade I got from Kyle. The knife got very sharp, up to my expectations of sharpness. I would however prefer to freehand sharpen, it is much simpler and faster. Also, there was no noticeable hollowing from the wheel of the sharpener with the naked eye and by feeling with my fingers. It looks just like an edge you would get from a fixtured system.

Few things I want to get more accurate info on in this statement.

1)you said you can check the blade easily for sharpness so you don't have to grind all the way to the burr.

there is no more, nor less effort here that using a grinding machine or a jig system as far as I can see.. they can all be checked for sharpness readily as they all use flipping systems, or hand held blade like your one.

you said previously in regards to your hand held device where you are holding the knife and can inspect even more easily than a tormek
Quote
Jason
Good questions. I didn't mean to raise that big a of burr, the stones just cut quickly, and it is hard to feel on the machine when you are getting close to forming a burr

So, what do you think it is about the tormek which makes it easier to do the inspection and not overgrind?

I suspect it may be a more relaxing position and the machine is doing the labour allowing your mind to focus better. what do you think? or is it that its just a finer starting grit? if its the finer starting grit, then one asks, why go coarser when using the hand stone,

--------------

The Tip, and heel of the knife are always the most troubling area of finding as they have higher pressure points, and more caution as they cant use a long bevel to support the grind.. this is where most people new to grinding fail and ruin their knives.

>>The knife got very sharp, up to my expectations of sharpness.
I want to be very careful here that we are not repeating what happened in the Waterstone thread. You have said your expectations are Johnd Davis level, then changed that to Strive to get to that level.,
now you are saying a fine grit similar to Norton crysolon fine has reached your expectations of sharpness..
please clarify specifically what you mean here.



---------------
>> I would however prefer to freehand sharpen, it is much simpler and faster.

You have come to this conclusion after one day of use with no actual experience or skill on the machine?`
Now, I'm not going to say anything about your preference. that's your preference.. but you could have tried the machine in a demo, so if your preference is by hand, why did you spend all the money on it? to make it harder and slower to do work?

I'm going to call you out, on saying its simpler and faster to do a knife by hand, than doing it on a powered machine. if I give you 100 dull kitchen knives to sharpen by hand, and I use a tormek, who do you think is going to finish first, with the highest avg standard across all 100 knives returned to customers?
on a tormek dressing the stone coarse, I could get through 100 knives in an hour, and dress it fine and do then do the hundred and finish them in 2-3hrs if I was pushing myself.. but lets just say, I could turn over the 100 knives finished in a day..
i think you'd be hard pressed doing that by hand.

it could be, that having not used the machine yet, and no experience that you currently find it easier and simpler to do by hand, but that doesn't make the statement accurate without qualifying that.



Look at the setup of the guy doing professional sharpening for 12 years.. he wouldn't be doing any of that by hand.. he wouldn't get repeat customers.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not Cliff, its Dr Stamp
#kebabstickcut, it's a thing - make it happen
cKc
Re: Tormek T-4
July 16, 2020 01:37PM
Nice video on truing and surfacing




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It's not Cliff, its Dr Stamp
#kebabstickcut, it's a thing - make it happen