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Tormek T-4

Posted by jasonstone20 
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Re: Tormek T-4
July 16, 2020 02:18PM
In regards to the Tormek, there are lots of interesting experiments you could do :

-sharpen by hand and compare for speed/edge quality

I suspect if you do ONE knife, and you are decently skilled, you could match or exceed the time on the Tormek, especially if you consider setup time on the machine. But then :

-repeat this for 10 knives

Now the machine would start to show its advantage. If you repeat this but look at :

-resetting edge bevels to 15 dps
-removing nicks
-jointing blades

Again on one knife, vs multiple knives.

As well :

-how sharp is the blade off the coarse stone only
-coarse stone + strop
-fine stone only
-fine stone + strop

Then look at that wheel abrasive on :

-class I, class II and class III steels

Two things :

-can it do one knife (cut aggressively, not fracture the edge)

and then

-can it do multiple knives without having to resurface the stone

At some point that stone HAS to stall because they make a specialty stone for high carbide steels, and as far as I know, no one has really looked in depth at where the base stone does well, stalls, and then just fails to cut completely.

Lots of possibilities

On YT, you could even make a playlist of videos.

If you want views, here are the most important things, they are even more important than content :

-shot framing
-lighting

Christy has the best videos I have seen, he has a large wide angle shot and then he has a micro-focused in-screen shot on his video. His production value is highly professional. Look at this :

[www.youtube.com]
cKc
Re: Tormek T-4
July 16, 2020 02:46PM
Its a smart idea how he uses the Picture in Picture..

when he is doing the work, he is focusing on the work, then later do the commentary, and combine. this way he has no distractions, and its also less boring.

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It's not Cliff, its Dr Stamp
#kebabstickcut, it's a thing - make it happen
Re: Tormek T-4
July 16, 2020 04:21PM
You can really see his advancement, just look at his video's from ~4 years ago.

There are lots of people with good content, but they never get popular due to low production values, they are just small-circle popular. The reality is this is what will get you noticed :

-HD, 1080 at a minimum
-wide frame, everything in focus
-excellent lighting

That's a minimum, then you can get fancy :

-cuts, intro's, picture in picture, etc.

This is actually more important than actual content. As a professional, if you want to make money, this is what you need to do, it is the reality of the audience.

Christy has both, solid content and high end production.
Re: Tormek T-4
July 17, 2020 12:42AM
Is it just me or does the whole 'grading stone' thing not make any sense? It would seem to just be ruining the ability of the stone to actually cut as intended, causing the edge to just be burnished. I feel that they need to offer more choices of stones if they want a finer cut, at minimum something like 250 & 1000, maybe then 2000 & 4-5000. Then they could actually include the proper 'grading stone' for each grit, to keep it cutting aggressively vs just wearing the abrasives smooth.
Re: Tormek T-4
July 17, 2020 01:24AM
The have multiple wheels :

-the original
-a silicon carbide one
-various fine waterstones (japanese)
-a series of diamond ones

As for the grading stone, I have never used it, but an actual grading tool should be diamond, I suspect it is AO and it is just crushing the abrasive in the other one, similar if you took the coarse of one india stone and ground it against a fine, you would make both of them a very worn / fine.

If you had no other way to make a coarse stone produce a finer finish, well that would work, and if your user base never asked questions about constantly wearing away the abrasive (people have praised wearing out those wheels, I have seen people claim to have gone through 20 of them) then you could increase your profits by selling more stones.

Most people using them do so on what I have seen are very low alloy/soft knives, anything will cut them efficiently, so it likely isn't an issue even if the abrasive is crushed, especially since most people professionally use them to sharpen, not actually regrind so the rate of stone wear would be minimal.

Note again how there is almost NO information about the abrasive at all :

-what is the stone binder
-porosity
-binder/abrasive ratio
-exact abrasive type

etc. . This is like selling a "surgical stainless" knife, or a "carbon steel" knife.
Re: Tormek T-4
July 17, 2020 05:41AM
Cliff,

the grader is made out of silicon carbide see here: [www.tormek.com]

The stone grader has a hard binder probably vitrified with silicon carbide that hardly breaks down if you grind metal with it.

I dont own a Tormek and only got the stone to play around with but it is not really practical to use for sharpening/thinning or conditioning/flattening other stones as it is just to slow for that imo and needs to be reconditioned to work again.
Re: Tormek T-4
July 17, 2020 01:51PM
Thanks, it should be able to recut the AO stone, curious what they use on the Silicon Carbide stone for the same purpose. I am still a little skeptical of this process, as for example imagine if you tried to market that for benchstones :

-sell a 200 grit benchstone
-sell a conditioning stone

And recommend the same procedure be used for it.
Re: Tormek T-4
July 17, 2020 11:29PM
Quote
cKc
Nice video on truing and surfacing


A few thoughts...

- How long must it take to get that badly out of round? It would seem to me this is something you should do relatively frequently, as it should both keeping cutting speeds high AND potentially slow wear on the low spots that develop as I would expect pressure increases there exacerbating the problem

- This freshly trued state would be the ideal way to use the 220 grit stone,

-----------------

I am considering picking one of these up for regrinds freehanded, all of my knives would be done with the standard stone included as they are all basic steels. That said, I wonder how easy it would be to get a good result grinding off a wheel like this to shoot for a flat or convex bevel. I imagine I'd have to do a fair amount of cleanup on a stone to get a clean result, but no experience here.

I can't help but wonder how many knives you'd have to regrind to wear this stone out, seems like it would last forever and a day used properly. They were running a deal 'free wheel for life' where you could send in your worn out stone up to three times to have them send you a new one... I almost bought one... regret it a bit but not sure it would have even mattered for me in a non-professional setting as a hobbyist.
Re: Tormek T-4
July 18, 2020 12:01AM
A few points :

-there are versions of this made by different manufacturers for ~$150
-no idea about the wear on the stone as I have not used it, but it looks like a very strong bond stone
-I suspect people wear them much more by the constant regrading than sharpening
-it also isn't obvious why you could not true the stone with a far simpler tool they are just a jigged perspective
-not sure about using it for regrinds, professionals use it for sharpening, they regrind on a sander almost always

As a point of consideration, a heavy primary bevel is ~5 degrees, full flat grinds can be 1-3 degrees, I can't imagine the Tormek could do that, it is a sharpening device mainly. The reason most people over heat knives is because they sharpen on power equipment, that was always the main contention Landes has, not that you can't grind a knife on a belt. Not saying you can't burn a knife in the primary grind, but it is a different thing vs sharpening. A 1" belt sander can be had for ~$50, pretty easy to experiment.
cKc
Re: Tormek T-4
July 18, 2020 04:25AM
A 1x30 grinder for thinning profiling is a far better option. Using 80 and 120 grit ceramic belts with a spray of simple green to keep the belt lubricated is very effective.

Using 400grit belts wet with simple green is fine for sharpening too once you have experience. The value of the tormek is speed of movement and jigs which for a professional greatly reduce the risk of damage or overgrinding other people's knives

----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not Cliff, its Dr Stamp
#kebabstickcut, it's a thing - make it happen
cKc
Re: Tormek T-4
July 18, 2020 04:25AM
Tormek also quiet and dust free.

I'd never try to profile on it

----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not Cliff, its Dr Stamp
#kebabstickcut, it's a thing - make it happen
cKc
Re: Tormek T-4
July 18, 2020 05:07AM




There are some very nice alternatives here, or complimentaries I would say.
i think if you have a tormek set up well its prob hard to beat.

but these variable speed ones that can run slow, modified to waterproof the belt area, or run a wax coolant would be exceptional additions for thinning knives

----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not Cliff, its Dr Stamp
#kebabstickcut, it's a thing - make it happen
Re: Tormek T-4
July 18, 2020 06:40AM
Almost every sharpening shop here in Sofia, Bulgaria use the Tormek machines. Most of the people who use them do not have any idea how because they are placed in key making/replacements shops and the importer/seller of the Tormek is the biggest key maker/replacement business here. Go figure.

On the topic - I recommend to check [www.youtube.com] (and other of his videos) to see the diamond wheels and many examples of making something relatively simple into a software and sharpening service business.

I especially "like" this video - [www.youtube.com]

Here is one of the best works I have ever seen from the information point to the tormek - [www.youtube.com]

I especially love this stone - rozsutec stone he use 6000-8000 very hard quartz sandstone from Slovakia - micro bevel monster in my opinion such as an arkansas stone

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Life is GOOD!

[www.youtube.com]
cKc
Re: Tormek T-4
July 18, 2020 07:09AM
Knife grinders has definitely made the most out of the tormek system

----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not Cliff, its Dr Stamp
#kebabstickcut, it's a thing - make it happen
Re: Tormek T-4
July 18, 2020 07:19AM
Quote
cKc
Knife grinders has definitely made the most out of the tormek system

I will love to have such small grinder - just to regrind all my knives - nothing more...

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Life is GOOD!

[www.youtube.com]
Re: Tormek T-4
July 18, 2020 06:51PM
The thing about getting a belt sander for me, is one of noise and mess mainly. I'd need to be able to grind indoors around family members in the house, as I don't have a workshop area it would likely just sit on an unused table in the house somewhere. I have to imagine it will work well enough, speed is not crucial to me... as what I truly need is something to just do the 'work' for me. I am short on energy these days so not having to move a knife back/forth on a stone is a great advantage to me personally.

I would also imagine by using a rocking motion on the blade, that I should be able to at least negate the hollow from forming and get some degree of flattish convex type geometry. I don't care about how nice the bevels really look, I'd imagine the 220 grit silicon carbide would probably work well enough for this as it would likely be friable to some degree so I hopefully wouldn't have to condition excessively with the truing tool. The price is not a factor either, I am not sure I'd want to gamble on the cheaper knockoffs anyways.
cKc
Re: Tormek T-4
July 18, 2020 07:20PM
Using the tormek with the jigs is the best way to go initially. Just facet the blade if it needs thinning.. 10dps 8dps etc..


Even if a small hollow is formed it may not be a bad thing depending on the knife.

Freehanding to thin I no issue with practise

Carve out facets so you don't go too deep then you skin the primary just like a surface grinder to clean it up rather than rocking it

----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not Cliff, its Dr Stamp
#kebabstickcut, it's a thing - make it happen
Re: Tormek T-4
July 18, 2020 09:52PM
That's great advice Kyley, funny that's pretty much what I've done in the past doing this on stones. I guess I had the right approach, it worked pretty well... that's just what I needed to hear. Only reason I was thinking of rocking it was Murray Carter does this a bit when he grinds on a wheel or stone to get a convex shape, I never really put much rocking motion intentionally on stones though.
Re: Tormek T-4
August 23, 2020 04:41PM
So I am proficient with the T-4 now, enough to sharpen other peoples knives and scissors. Because of this, I also got a Harbor Freight 1x30, and the belt it comes with, a 80 grit AlO, to do the gross material removal, and then use the Tormek T-4 for sharpening.

I want to get the Tormek Multi-Base MB-100 attachment, so I grind on the side of the wheels while having the accuracy of a jig system, and that allows me to get flat grind edges, and not hollow grind edges. I also found diamond/CBN wheels for the T-4:
[woodturnerswonders.com]

I want one of the CBN wheels, and the Japanese Waterstone wheel also, so I can get my much loved by me mirrored edges. The edges off the regular AlO stone, graded to 1k, and then polished with the 3u PA-70 Tomek Paste, is about a 2-4k JIS edge. It is ready to be put on a 8k JIS stone, I tried that last night on the Naniwa Fuji 8k, and it worked pretty well, except the edge is hollow ground, so you need to remove more metal than normal to get the whole edge mirror polished.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
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cKc
Re: Tormek T-4
August 23, 2020 04:51PM
LoL. i thought you got a tormek because you had nowhere to use a 1x30. oh well. enjoy it. they are fun. if you need to cool it, a light spray of simple green, aiming away from the motor works well

----------------------------------------------------------------------
It's not Cliff, its Dr Stamp
#kebabstickcut, it's a thing - make it happen
Re: Tormek T-4
August 24, 2020 02:45PM
Quote
cKc
LoL. i thought you got a tormek because you had nowhere to use a 1x30. oh well. enjoy it. they are fun. if you need to cool it, a light spray of simple green, aiming away from the motor works well

That is what I thought, until I set up a station for the Tormek. The station I set up has room for both. I have been using water to cool the belt, but that evaporates quickly. I will try Simple Green since I do have a bottle. Thank you for the tip.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
WordPress YouTube Facebook Patreon Locals Instagram Twitter
Re: Tormek T-4
August 24, 2020 07:20PM
cKc,
The Simple Green works way better than water, I tried it out.

"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
WordPress YouTube Facebook Patreon Locals Instagram Twitter
Re: Tormek T-4
September 30, 2020 10:22PM
[www.youtube.com]




"I am still discussing issues of steels and performance at this stage." -- Cliff Stamp, May his memory be a blessing
"Life is GOOD", -- Stefan_Wolf, May His Memory Be A Blessing
WordPress YouTube Facebook Patreon Locals Instagram Twitter